Monday, June 18, 2007

You wouldn't treat a dog like this.



Physicians do not know much about surgery, haematologists do not know much about cardiology, psychiatrists do not know much about orthopaedics and GPs, well, they do not know much about anything. And yet, we all went to medical school and so, before we became specialists, we were doctors. We had learnt how to analyse problems and how to know our boundaries. Those five years were not wasted.

Another email arrives, this time from a Consultant Psychiatrist somewhere in the West Country. Her teenage daughter, who is herself about to go to medical school, fell off a horse last week and hurt her shoulder.
I had a look, and although I am but a humble psychiatrist, I knew it was a bust clavicle. Palpable lump, point tenderness, severe pain. Pretty obvious diagnosis. Sling and rest is all that is required but I am a psychiatrist. Better go to A/E and get it done properly. She should probably have an x-ray, just to confirm.

So far so good. I take daughter to the minor accident unit. Seen by an Nurse Practitioner, who carefully examines her, and diagnoses '?acromio-clavicular joint strain'

Oh well.

Off to x-ray. Nice radiographer chats to soon to be medical student daughter and points out the fracture to her.

“Cor!” says daughter.

Back to see NP. He looks at x-ray, gives daughter a sling and gives good advice about rest, mobility etc. I smell a small rat.

“How long do you think the fracture will take to heal?” I ask.

“Oh, it's not broken,” he said. “It's just a strain”.

Could I have I look at the film?” I say.

He in turn now smells a rat. “Do you know about X-Rays?” he asks. I say I am a psychiatrist, but I learnt a little about them at medical school. We look at the film. I point out the fracture.

“Oh, that's just a line on the film” he says, ignoring breaks in the line of the cortex, the increased density in the overlapping ends etc. etc.

“OK”, I say, “well, we'll wait for the report from the radiologist” and we leave. Daughter is impressed. "I never knew you could be tactful, Mum."

Now, this is all rather trivial really, but it illustrates a more important point. A poor examination gave a false diagnosis, which was then adhered to despite evidence to the contrary. We can all be guilty of this. But doctors are trained carefully, and have the knowledge to move on from this position of error. I have lost count of the number of times my teachers said 'Never make the facts fit a theory. Your theory must fit the facts.'

This NP, who was in charge of the unit, had obviously never gone through this process. It's not his fault. He is being used in a role for which he is simply not qualified.


In this case, no harm done. But what happens when he sends a child home with a sore throat, pyrexia and dribbling because he does not know of the significance of dribbling in a child who cannot can swallow?
I would not want this NP treating my daughter. Frankly, I would not want him treating my dog, which brings me on to the interesting case of Dr Susie Macleod who is an experienced veterinary surgeon in Hertfordshire. She employs a number of highly experienced veterinary nurses. In 2004 she set up a separate clinic seven miles away, entitled the Health4Pets clinic. This establishment was staffed wholly by veterinary nurses, with no resident veterinary surgeon on the premises, although there was regular communication by telephone with the main practice and webcam pictures could be transmitted between the premises. The clinic's main function was to furnish facilities for the vaccination of small animals by veterinary nurses at considerably lower cost than the charges made by practices where veterinary surgeons carried out vaccinations.

And why not indeed? Sending “nurse specialists” out into the community to manage asthmatics and elderly patient with heart failure and COPD is known to provide huge financial savings and free up doctors and hospitals for more important work. Why not apply the same cost savings to veterinary medicine?

The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons were not persuaded. On the contrary. They considered that Susie Macleod’s behaviour constituted disgraceful conduct.

Section 19 of the Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966 makes it a criminal offence for anyone to undertake veterinary work unless they are fully qualified veterinary surgeons. Veterinary nurses are allowed to carry out certain limited procedures provided the animals concerned
are under the care of the veterinary surgeon and the treatment in each case is carried out by the nurses under the direction of the veterinary surgeon.
Susie accepted the following facts:
  • a. she was not present at the clinic when the vaccinations were carried out;
  • b. she had never examined the animals;
  • c. she had never read the animals’ medical records;
  • d. she had never discussed the animals with their owners or agreed to take on their care;
  • e. she did not know of the animals’ presence at the clinic or their condition;
  • f. she had no discussion with the nurse administering the vaccine about the animal or its proposed treatment;
  • g. she had no knowledge of the animals at allSo what defence did Susie mount to these agreed facts?
Read the next bit carefully. You many have heard it before. Susie placed some emphasis, however, in her submissions to the Board,
on her provision of “protocols” to the nurses which they were strictly enjoined to follow. In each case the nurse had a sheet on which she was required to fill in details about the individual animal, ticking boxes as she went, with instructions to refer the case to a veterinary surgeon on making certain findings about its health or condition.
She went on to argue that…
a veterinary nurse could carry out booster injections, so long as it was under veterinary direction, which she interpreted as extending to the system whereby she gave standard directions to the nurses by means of the “protocols”.
And what did their Lordships think of that?
"Their Lordships also consider, however, that the treatment carried out by the veterinary nurses in vaccinating the animals cannot be said to have been done under the appellant’s direction. The appellant argued that her “protocols”, consisting of instructions to the nurses and forms which they had to complete, constituted sufficient direction to them. Their Lordships cannot agree. They do not wish to attempt to define in detail the circumstances in which treatment is carried on under the direction of a veterinary surgeon, for those circumstances may vary widely. The concept does, however, connote an element of immediacy and potential control of the treatment which was wholly lacking in the carrying out of vaccinations at the Health4Pets clinic.

…..At its hearing the Disciplinary Committee was advised by its legal assessor that disgraceful conduct in a professional respect is conduct which falls far short of that which is expected of the profession. Their Lordships consider that that was an appropriate definition and that the Committee was correctly advised...

…their Lordships have no hesitation in upholding the decision of the Disciplinary Committee that the appellant was guilty of disgraceful conduct in a professional respect. The detailed findings made by it and the expression of opinion contained in its judgment that the appellant’s actions were capable of jeopardising animal welfare give sustainable grounds for reaching its ultimate decision, and their Lordships are of opinion that that decision fell within the ambit of sustainable conclusions."
The Veterinary Profession is not dumbing down. It is not going to allow protocol driven tick-sheet veterinary medicine to be practiced by unqualified “veterinary care professionals.”

Susie Macleod was reprimanded for disgraceful professional behaviour. We can be sure that she will not in the future be letting her nurse specialists loose on animals.

The question for doctors, patients and the NHS is obvious and I will not labour it. But the next time the cardiac nurse quacktitioner pops in to treat grandma’s heart failure, or the next time you visit a quacktitioner run walk-in clinic, try to forget that it is illegal to treat a dog in this fashion.

++++++++++

The full version of:

Susie MacCleod v The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons is available here.

Labels: , ,

80 Comments:

Blogger raymond said...

We have always held animals in high regard. We are a nation of animal lovers - they give unconditional love and never lie, cheat or dump you for another man/woman.

Ask Gordon Ramsay, of 'we should eat more horse' fame.

I fear that, after reading this blog, a swathe of fellow Brits will murmur, 'quite right'.

Monday, June 18, 2007 4:22:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Surely children shouldn't be able (or allowed) to swallow cans?

Monday, June 18, 2007 4:57:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

yep and watching the TV documentary about the vet hospital it was clear that their "A & E" equivalent for animals was somewhat better run than any NHS A & E, and there were sure not nurses doing the triarge and sending out head injuries back into the waiting room to colapse etc

no one

Monday, June 18, 2007 5:26:00 PM  
Anonymous JuliaM said...

Also, I choose my vet (and have private insurance for my pets)....

It would be interesting to know if the psychiatrist put in a complaint, too....

Monday, June 18, 2007 5:34:00 PM  
Blogger Garth Marenghi said...

Spot on.

It is very sad that the medical establishment has not fought this dangerous dumbing down, the royal college of veterinary surgeons showed them how it should be done.

The majority of blame must lie at the DoH and HMG's door for their 'disgraceful conduct'

Monday, June 18, 2007 5:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would say that being offensive with the liberal use of the 'F' word is 'Disgraceful conduct in a professional respect' myself. All down to semantics and personal opinion.

We had very good service from our Minor Injuries Clinic when our 4 yr old fractured his wrist. I'll be honest and say that I couldn't see anything on the X Ray, but the nurse and the Radiographer did, so son't wrist was duely plastered and he recovered fully. It was a darn sight quicker than a trip to A&E too, which we have done for a fractured wrist - took all afternoon...

Regarding the treatment of animals - there are some interesting protocols regarding vet care - if you want an Osteopath to treat your horse for a strain, they speak to your vet first. It's illegal (I believe) for anyone other than a vet or a Farrier to remove a horse's shoe. It's certainly illegal for anyone other than a registered Farrier to shoe a horse.

Incidentally, whilst on the subject of vets, I have a friend who has Crohn's Disease. Disatisfied with being pumped with pills offered by Doctors and having spent some time in hospital, he asked a Vet how he would treat a horse with a similar problem. The Vet advised changing diet and some herbal supplements which my friend followed and took. He's now pain-free and manages his condition really well without medication. Co-incidentally his GP's wife also has Crohn's Disease and my friend wanted to pass on his experience. Guess what - the GP wasn't interested!

Monday, June 18, 2007 5:40:00 PM  
Blogger John said...

Venterinary & human nurses have very little in common other than title, I'm not sure that you're comparing like with like.

Monday, June 18, 2007 6:14:00 PM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

I am not going to mince words, anonymous at 5.40 pm, but the crap in your final paragraph makes me despair. Let us take a look at it in detail.

"Incidentally, whilst on the subject of vets, I have a friend who has Crohn's Disease. Disatisfied with being pumped with pills offered by Doctors and having spent some time in hospital..."

Pillocks like you who use unscientific prejudicail language like this drive me to despair. Why "pumped"?



"...he asked a Vet how he would treat a horse with a similar problem."

A horse with severe Crohn's disease (do they get it? I have not got a clue) would be shot.

"...The Vet advised..."

The Vet SHOULD be shot. What an ignorant arrogant arsehole. Sounds like a nurse quacktitioner. Thing is, of course, in the UK it is illegal for doctors to treat animals, but not for vets to treat people

"....changing diet and some herbal supplements which my friend followed and took. He's now pain-free and manages his condition really well without medication."

I am glad his Crohn's is in remission. Doubt it is anything to do with the vet

"Co-incidentally his GP's wife also has Crohn's Disease and my friend wanted to pass on his experience. Guess what - the GP wasn't interested!"

Really. You surprise me. You meant a credulous arsehole goes to a doctor and says, "why don't you treat your wife the same way my vet treats horses" and the doctor wasn't interest.

Heavens above. There's a surprise.

It's people like you who spout crap like like this that allow quacks to make a living.

John

Monday, June 18, 2007 6:18:00 PM  
Blogger Henry North London said...

In my experience I have come across a nurse who virtually ordered me to prescribe an antipsychotic drug to someone who she had assessed. Guess what my reply was.... I need to see the patient before I prescribe anything... I actually disagreed with her diagnosis when I had seen said patient and complained that this nurse was telling me what to prescribe . I would have none of it. Said nurse actually called another doctor and asked him to see this patient because she wanted her diagnosis to stand and you wonder why most of the doctors you speak to are fed up with the NHS ?

Monday, June 18, 2007 6:51:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Surprisingly narrow-minded John. My first thought was "That's interesting, what herbs were used and what's their active ingredient, I wonder?"

I know that anecdote is not the singular of 'data', but dismissing this without even a hint of further investigation could be a mistake.

I grant you that usually in such circs it turns out that there's no reason to credit the alternative treatments - the patient continued to take their existing medication, or the 'herbs' that were taken can't be remembered, or all the other salient details become hazy on questioning, but an immediate contemptuous response without knowing any details is surprising.

Bah.

Monday, June 18, 2007 6:53:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, John - that's what he told me and he's not tied to the loo all day - he's well, happy and not in pain. Does it matter how he got there? Incidentally he's not a 'credulous arsehole', he's a very talented man.

The Vet did not *treat* my friend, my friend asked how a vet would treat a horse with a similar problem and the vet told him. What my friend did with this information was up to him.

So what do you know about horses, John? In this area of the UK, there are lots of horses and some very expensive ones at that.

As I am sure you have experienced, not everyone wants to take 'tablets' for the rest of their lives. Some choose herbal preparations, some choose homeopathic remedies. All absolute CRAP, in your opinion, no doubt. What does it matter if the patient is happy?

You are increasingly showing a great deal of unpleasant and offensive anger towards posts you don't agree with. You've written a post about 'Disgraceful Conduct of a Professional Respect' - I consider your attitude to be just that. If you don't like the fact that other people have an opinion that's different to yours, don't invite people to contribute to debate that you raise. Calling people 'arseholes', 'Fuckwits' and 'Twats' because you don't agree with what they say is pretty 'Disgraceful' in my opinion...

Monday, June 18, 2007 7:04:00 PM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

Hi Bah

When it comes to treating a women with Crohn's disease with a dietary changed based on a horse's diet, I plead guilty to being narrow minded.

Horses eat grass, Bah.

++++

There is however liaison between vets and doctors. For example, see this;

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/331/7527/1248

Of course, as I say, it is not legal for doctors to treat horses. It is legal for vets to treat humans.

Bring on the hay.


John


John

Monday, June 18, 2007 7:04:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

But John - the issue is whether the herbal treatment worked (and whether it works generally), not what animals it was used on before humans.

In the main I do not have much time for alternative treatments, but herbal treatments at least have active ingredients that can be isolated.

Bah

Monday, June 18, 2007 7:09:00 PM  
Anonymous Medical Physicist said...

Slightly off topic, but I can't find the correct older entries John...

Richard Granger has announced he will leave the DoH at the end of the year (BBC News) - Hooray!

Also, a plea not to tar all "Medical Healthcare Professionals" with the same brush. I spent fours years getting my Enginering Degree, a further four years working on my PhD (two of which were spent almost full-time in the NICU), five years working in Medical Electronics/Physics research at a University before moving into the NHS. While I agree with some of your sentiments, not all "Healthcare Professionals" are the same.

Monday, June 18, 2007 7:17:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

on another topic

a friend of mine had stiches put in by a nurse with only one eye a few months ago

call me silly, but surely good binocular vision is required for such sensitive work on sensitive parts of the body

dont the medical profession self regulate to stop any such clear nonsenses being allowed?

im dam sure folk with one eye would not be allowed to stitch a dog up

Monday, June 18, 2007 7:20:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People with one eye can drive a car and that's not stopped by the 'medical profession'.

Monday, June 18, 2007 7:24:00 PM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

Also, a plea not to tar all "Medical Healthcare Professionals" with the same brush. I spent fours years getting my Enginering Degree, a further four years working on my PhD (two of which were spent almost full-time in the NICU), five years working in Medical Electronics/Physics research at a University before moving into the NHS. While I agree with some of your sentiments, not all "Healthcare Professionals" are the same.

+++++

I don't.

I don't tar anyone with anything, unless and until they start doing jobs for which they are not trained.

My wife is a consultant radiologist and responsible for radiation protection in her hospital. She works with and is advised by physicists and scientist. She could not do their job and does not try.

They could not do her job, and they don't try.

All well and good.

But if a PhD physicist appears in an outpatient clinic and starts doing sigmoidoscopies, then I start tarring!

The term HCP has been borrowed and abused to cover a whole load of people who are substituting inadequately for doctors.



John

Monday, June 18, 2007 7:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dr Crippen,
Vetinary nurses can qualify in less than 2 yrs having achieved NVQ at level 2.

The Quacks on the other hand have an average 10+yrs post-Reg experience [according to the RCN employment study, 2005].

This comes on top of basic nurse training which takes a minimum of 3yrs [if done at diploma level], or 4yrs if a BSc is undertaken.

It goes without saying that further post-reg qualifications are required before nurses are permitted to perform extended roles.

Your comparison with moggy abusers suggests an even greater level of desperation than the illiterati red herring.

yours as ever,

the A&E C/N

Monday, June 18, 2007 7:40:00 PM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

Excellent study of nurse led walk in centres pointed out by Jayann on haloscan:


http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/women/080403health/tm_headline=we-need-the-basics-before-any-walk-in-centres&method=full&objectid=19097804&siteid=50082-name_page.html


Main findings that stand out to me:

It concluded, “Walk-in centres are likely to have only a marginal impact on access to healthcare for the population as a whole;”

Walk-in centres do not meet public expectations.

Public expectations of access to, and level of, health services continue to rise. But far from meeting public expectations, nurse-led walk-in centres in England have left some patients feeling let down.

Research by the King’s Fund found that nurse-led walk-in centres do not meet public expectations. It found that there is a higher expectation about what they can and can’t deliver.

The outcome of this is that walk-in centres – especially where there are no GPs involved – disappoint the public who access them;

Walk-in centres disrupt continuity of care.

Before the introduction of nurse-led walk-in centres, GPs warned that the policy of open access would disrupt continuity of care. Unfortunately this has proved to be the case.

Nurse-led walk-in centres push nurses to the limit of their professional competence.

Initial research into nurse-led walk-in centres by the King’s Fund and subsequent research by Mountford and Rosen (2001) found that nurses working in walk-in centres are “highly stressed and are pushed to the limits of their professional competence”.

The King’s Fund research also found that nurses experienced “major challenges diagnosing and treating patients autonomously and coping with the varied case mix”.



I am sure the vets would agree



John

Monday, June 18, 2007 7:54:00 PM  
Blogger daedalus2u said...

Careful John,

"A horse with severe Crohn's disease (do they get it? I have not got a clue) would be shot."

You will give the NHS more ideas on how to save money.

Monday, June 18, 2007 8:15:00 PM  
Anonymous JuliaM said...

"...comparison with moggy abusers..."

'Abusers'....that seems familiar....

Let's remind ourselves, shall we:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=461390&in_page_id=1774

Monday, June 18, 2007 8:19:00 PM  
Anonymous Matt said...

Juliam says

"Whatever"

Careful John, the trolls have arrived!

He gives a link to you favourite medical journal as well!

Monday, June 18, 2007 8:33:00 PM  
Anonymous lost_nurse said...

As an aside: when I were a lad, my uncle (a vet) kindly spayed our black lab, with my dad (then a GP) assisting in the HCP role. I'm guessing that dreams of chasing rabbits are much improved by ketamine.

I mention this only as an example of professions working in harmony.

Monday, June 18, 2007 8:35:00 PM  
Blogger Amy said...

"friend of mine had stiches put in by a nurse with only one eye a few months ago

call me silly, but surely good binocular vision is required for such sensitive work on sensitive parts of the body"

I know of a surgeon who only has use of one eye - he's a consultant
at the top of his field.

As for Walk-in Centres, where else are you supposed you go when the antibiotics you are taking for a UTI aren't working and it is Bank Holiday weekend?? You only get to see the OOH docs if the nurses send you. The nurses follow their protocols and give you the next antibiotic on the list - but can only prescribe the minimum dose. They can't prescribe according to clinical need, so shouldn't be prescribing at all.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at nurses - I am one myself. I just don't see the point in having a system whereby you only see someone who does half the job.

Monday, June 18, 2007 8:50:00 PM  
Blogger John said...

Amy - that's all part of a wider problem with nurses doing anything other than cleaning up shit! Despite knowing what they're doing, and usually being highly trained during pre-registration courses, the NHS believes that at the point of qualification they are incompetent to perform most procedures, and so insists on re-training them, and generally restricting them in any way possible.

It is unprofessional for a nurse to do something against their clinical judgement (and even more unprofessional to act in a situation where their knowledge doesn't allow them clinical judgement), and probably opens them up to litigation too. "The Scope of Professional Practice" was supposed to put an end to the nonsense of protocols, only performing procedures we have certificates for, and the general administrative crap that gets in the way of us doing what needs to be done.

If a nurse can't make a decision for himself, or recognise when a guideline is inappropriate, then he has no business practising. Most nurses are in the position where they are able to make these calls, but are not allowed by employers. It's just plain wrong.

Monday, June 18, 2007 9:05:00 PM  
Blogger Nick. said...

On the herbal diet for Crohn's: I'll bet you fifty quid the diet has bugger-all to do with the remission. It's possible that your friend now feels in control of his treatment in a way he didn't before, and that psychological effect has caused remission; it's possible the drugs had finally kicked in; it's possible he just went into remission.

There's a fundamental point to be made here: doctors work according to an evidence base, and there's a lot of evidence for the drugs and not a lot for diet. That's why your friend's GP "wasn't interested" in his horse-inspired diet - because it would be utterly, utterly irresponsible of him to "prescribe" anything based on a single, short-term, uncontrolled case study.

On nurses: I spent the best part of a year doing research at an IBD clinic, and the specialist nurse there was fantastic. She was fantastic for two very simple reasons: (1) she was very, very good at building relationships with the patients, at making herself available when they needed to talk, and at sensing when they needed to come in to the clinic. (2) she didn't want to be a doctor. The idea of seeing them in the clinic was something she just wasn't interested in.

And there's another fundamental issue: I know there are things nurses do that I can't - I can't hold a flame to this woman in terms of the way she got on with the patients - but by the same token, there are things I can do that nurses can't. Deep down, I think most of us know that - but the penny-pinching, unaccountable idiots who're putting these dangerous systems into place don't.

Monday, June 18, 2007 9:48:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

well i dont want one eyed nurses or surgeons sewing my up thanks

we do need good minors clinics running 24/7, but they need to be fronted by docs not nurses, a la auckland and the rest of the planet

Monday, June 18, 2007 10:32:00 PM  
Anonymous dearieme said...

Is it still true that it's distinctly harder to get into Vet School than Medical School?

Monday, June 18, 2007 10:36:00 PM  
Anonymous Biomedical Scientist said...

Nicely put, Nick.

More on psychology and IBD here:

Mawdsley JE, Rampton DS. Gut. 2005 Oct;54(10):1481-91.
Psychological stress in IBD: new insights into pathogenic and therapeutic implications.

(review - free access)

There actually seems to have been loads of interest in dietary interventions for Crohn's

e.g. Goh J, O'Morain CA. Aliment Pharmacol Ther. 2003 Feb;17(3):307-20. Nutrition and adult inflammatory bowel disease.

- but the lack of a consensus after a fair bit of investigation suggests it is not straightforward. Wonder what the vet suggested?

Of course, if you follow the alternative remedies debates on sites like BadScience:

http://www.badscience.net/?cat=4

you will see that trying to explain to people why proper trials, rather than anecdotes, are needed to sort out real effects from "other stuff" turns out to be hard work.

Monday, June 18, 2007 10:43:00 PM  
Blogger daedalus2u said...

It may be that Crohn’s is due to low NO, a number of inflammatory conditions are. NO inhibits NFkB, low NO may result in too much of the protein bits that NFkB makes. The placebo effect is due to increased NO. If Crohn’s is caused by low NO, then it should be quite amenable to treatment by placebos.
On the other hand, grass has a lot of nitrate in it. Perhaps horses don’t get Crohn’s because of all the grass that they eat.

Monday, June 18, 2007 11:18:00 PM  
Blogger Marcin said...

A disgraceful result for our law - a vet cannot offer care for animals in a cost-effective and safe way, and allow his customers to decide whether to use that service.

This isn't the right way to do it, no matter what "Garth Marenghi" thinks - it's topsy turvy.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 12:24:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People with horses use herbal remedies often - Arnica is used for bruising etc. Part of the reason is that it's not possible to compete if a horse is being prescribed a pain killed called 'Bute', the other that owners find that it works. I had a Vet prescribed a herbal preparation for an immune problem with my horse.

Dr C - if you have any horse owners amongst your patients, I'd put money on it that many of them use Arnica on themselves.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:16:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nick - that is all perfectly possible - and even likely. However, it's not possible to say that without at least knowing which herb was used, for how long, and in conjunction with what medicines.

We're supposed to be practising evidence-based medicine - that means that alternative treatments that have any possible mechanism of action need to be examined rather than simply sneered at.

Bah.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:42:00 AM  
Blogger Shinga said...

There are collaborative medic-vet efforts in comparative gastro-enterology albeit these are intended to "elucidate disease causality and pathogenesis, particularly for disorders that have proved difficult to study in humans—namely, motility disorders such as irritable bowel syndrome. Although there are obvious differences between humans and animals in terms of anatomy and diet, the pathophysiological and clinical parallels may be greater than previously thought".

The authors conclude with the comment: "[t]he direction of this knowledge transfer has traditionally been from human to veterinary medicine, but it is now clear that the movement of information can be two way, with mutual benefit".

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 8:56:00 AM  
Blogger Pogo said...

Of course, as I say, it is not legal for doctors to treat horses. It is legal for vets to treat humans.

... John


That sounds reasonable... After all they're better qualified. :-)

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 8:57:00 AM  
Blogger Garth Marenghi said...

mmmmmm marcin,

your logic is topsy turvy, why not allow portacabin surgery by untrained bandits who want to make a quick buck?

why not let anyone set up private medical practice, even those with zero medical training, the customer can decide who to use?

why not let anyone practice law and the customer can decide who to use?

why not let anyone teach, even those with no formal education, just let the parent decide?

why not let anyone do anything they want and the market can just decide?

It's pretty damn obvious that the above suggestions are not the brighest to say the least

'a vet cannot offer care for animals in a cost-effective and safe way'

A vet can! The royal college stood up for safe quality practice, something that has been eroded in the NHS.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 9:36:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous at Monday, June 18, 2007 7:20:00 PM

From my slightly one eyed view of things my stiching is a shit load neater than some surgeons. I suspect that even with my one eye I have a more balanced view of life than you.
Incidentally, with one eye i am a crack shot with a shot gun and pretty bloody good on a hockey field. That of course is with one eye.
I also know a neurosurgeon with amblyopia. Best in the country he is in my books. I would let him operate on my brain. For the non medics out there amblyopia is as good as being 1 eyed.
So I will call you silly, but I have multiple other terms for you.

One eye'd Joe

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:08:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What I find really offensive here is that photo of those poor dogs so that the good doc can make his (old tired) point about Nurse Pracitioners again.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:33:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"What I find really offensive here is that photo of those poor dogs so that the good doc can make his (old tired) point about Nurse Pracitioners again."

I find this offensive. Engage in the debate or bugger of.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:50:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OT: daedalus2u - I just visited your blog, but I couldn't post there. I'm not a medic or a scientist, so I don't understand it much at all - but it seemed to me that a lot of what you were talking about - ATP, mitochondria, amyloids, Nitric Oxide - is similar to what I've been hearing about Chronic Fatigue Syndrome recently. Except there I think they are saying you need to reduce NO to increase ATP. e.g. NO http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/8071/
ATP http://www.ei-resource.org/Articles/cfs-art20.asp
amyloid http://phoenix-cfs.org/PR%20Sp%20Ed%20IACFS%20II%20Brain%20Genes.htm

K

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:51:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"What I find really offensive here is that photo of those poor dogs so that the good doc can make his (old tired) point about Nurse Pracitioners again."

"I find this offensive. Engage in the debate or bugger of. "
-----------------------------

What? I don't get it. Are you saying I am acting offensively, for bringing to attention this horrific image of animal suffering being used inappropriately, to basically slag off Nursing Pracitioners again?

Have you even looked at that picture?

What, Doctor Crippen, where you thinking? Did you really think it was ok to use such a horrifying picture to illustrate a point about a missed fracture and a vet's disciplinary case on a completely different issue? This image has nothing to do with that case.

Oh yes, anon: poor spelling. It should be 'bugger OFF', not 'of'.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:16:00 AM  
Anonymous MadRad said...

Its now common practice for the radiographer to 'red dot' any suspicious casualty x-ray (either with the aforementioned red dot on the film or form, a different coloured dot or by indicating directly on the PACS in some way (in a specified field or directly on the image). Either this particular hospital doesn't do that or the NP has ignored this safety blanket as well.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:25:00 AM  
Anonymous Katherine said...

But then on the other hand, I had a perfectly good experience with an NP diagnosing and treating, correctly, a fracture in my foot a few years ago - said diagnosis confirmed by X-Ray.

It was the Registrar that got my long term prognosis wrong at the fracture clinic a couple of days later - a mistake cleared up later by a Consultant.

So one anecdotally bad NP, and one anecdotally bad Registrar. Where does that actually leave the "debate" on NP's?

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 11:40:00 AM  
Anonymous Pascal said...

One aspect of the vet's ruling which has not been commented upon is the "at considerably lower cost" part.

Do you think even for 1 second that this is not a big hidden argument in the decision, or the reason she was reported ?

The only reason for the quarantine for many years was to protect the financial interests of vets and boarding kennels owners.

Nowadays, the rabies vaccine is deemed effective for 2 years in the UK (newer vaccines will be good for 3 years I believe). But in France, the vaccine still needs to be done every year.

These are the same vaccines. The reason is easy to figure out.

The prevention of dumbing down is a good thing, but I do not think for an instant that it is the real reason.

My brother is a vet, and he uses homeopathy and ostheopathy sometimes on animals, with very good (and very surprising) results. He is also not averse to inject saline or whatever so the owner thinks that he has done something more than twisting his cat's neck.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 12:18:00 PM  
Blogger Advanced Practitioner said...

medical nurses do not know much about surgical nursing, haematology nurses do not know much about cardiology nursing, CPNs do not know much about orthopaedic nursing and, some doctors well, they do not know much about anything when it comes to nursing.
So, before we became nurse specialists, ANP, NP we were nurses. We had learnt how to analyse problems and how to know our boundaries. Those initial three years were not wasted, neither are the subcequent six years of training that 'I' personally have completed to enable me to be a safe practitioner.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"What I find really offensive here is that photo of those poor dogs so that the good doc can make his (old tired) point about Nurse Pracitioners again."

If you had understood the point of Dr Crippen's piece then you would realise the point to using the picture.

Please cease your pathetic attempts at claiming moral outrage.

Do you not think the dumbing down described by Dr Crippen is completely safe?

It is not. It is dangerous and patients are suffering as a result, this is the point.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Are all doctors 'completely safe'?

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:14:00 PM  
Blogger Garth Marenghi said...

advanced pratcitioner,

There are numerous problems with your argument.

Indeed nurses and trained and know about nursing, and quite rightly doctors are not trained in nursing; thanks for pointing out the glaringly obvious again.

The point is nurses are trained in nursing which is very different to medical training.

Nurses are trained to know their role and know their boundaries as regards nursing, this does not mean nurses can then be then converted into doctors with dumbed down insufficient training and be assumed to know where their new boundariss are!

The initial three years of your training were not wasted as far as becoming a good nurse, but they were wasted if you think they are useful for becoming an autonomously practising 'practitioner'.

You demonstrate a lack of insight into the insufficiency of your own training relative to the training that the autonomously practising medically qualified possess.

http://advancedpractitioneruk.blogspot.com/2007/06/whats-in-name.html

in your above post, you are pretty much using the same argument as Dr Crippen!

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:22:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anonymous,

of course they aren't!

are all pilots completely safe? no

are all teachers great teachers? no

are all nurses completely safe? no

does this mean we should erode standards for the training of all of the above, and start replacing them with workers who are less trained and les safe?

you seem to be defending a 'yes' asnwer to the above

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 1:26 - no - I'm making the point (like you are) that NOBODY is 'safe' all of the time.

Could you be specific and explain for all us non-medical numpties how NP's are 'less safe' and be specific in explaining how their training does not enable them to carry out their NP role in an appropirate manner. Please cover off how Doctors can be trained to do certain procedures, but nurses can't - ie specifically why is this so?

Answers to these questions would be useful too:

1. Who decides the parameters for an NP role?
2. Who trains the NPs?
3. Who trains the NP trainers?

One other question - do the GPs who hate nurses do ALL their own smear tests and do they take blood - or do they refer both to the practice nurse? If they do refer to the practice nurse, do they feel she/he performs these tasks to a high standard?

At my practice, the nurse is *better* (IMHO) at taking blood - ie I don't look like a heroin addict afterwards and it doesn't hurt as much.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:41:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anonymous,
before you take the spelling moral high ground again,

I know less is not spelt les, there are such things as typos even though you arrogantly seem to assume they are something else:

"Oh yes, anon: poor spelling. It should be 'bugger OFF', not 'of'."

Bugger off you ignoramus

(is that spelt correctly enough for you?)

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:43:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

again for anonymous, seeing as you like stating the obvious-

"Anon 1:26 - no - I'm making the point (like you are) that NOBODY is 'safe' all of the time."

of course they aren't!

are all pilots completely safe? no

are all teachers great teachers? no

are all nurses completely safe? no

does this mean we should erode standards for the training of all of the above, and start replacing them with workers who are less trained and les safe?

you seem to be defending a 'yes' asnwer to the above

( your above questions about NPs demonstrate how little you know of the subject, why don't you go and do a little research before tiring us with your ill informed opinion? the answers to your questions are out there, just do and do a bit of reading )

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 1:48:00 PM  
Blogger Garth Marenghi said...

dumb be down scotty!

http://ferretfancier.blogspot.com/2007/05/terror-tales.html

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:08:00 PM  
Blogger daedalus2u said...

OT to anon, the notion that reducing NO will increase ATP is completely false. There are only a handful of disorders associated with too much NO, all of them acute (such as the hypotension of septic shock). Try to figure out out how to post on my blog and I can explain it all to you.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:34:00 PM  
Blogger Advanced Practitioner said...

in your above post, you are pretty much using the same argument as Dr Crippen!
*********************
Doh! Garth exactly.
*********************
You demonstrate a lack of insight into the insufficiency of your own training relative to the training that the autonomously practising medically qualified possess.

Garth I do not claim to be doctor, but a maxi-nurse!

I could play who's got more academic qualifications than you game if i wanted to resort to playground trivialities. lol

I could go on all day but I'm fully aware that I'll never gain ground on this topic with many here. If the medical profession is so frustrated with the 'dumbing down', then get of your comfortable arses and fight in the corridors of power.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 2:52:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon 1:48 - ummmm - different Anon! I asked the questions, which seem pretty reasonable.

( your above questions about NPs demonstrate how little you know of the subject, why don't you go and do a little research before tiring us with your ill informed opinion? the answers to your questions are out there, just do and do a bit of reading )


As there is much pedantary regarding spelling on this site, 'Your' should be you're - ie you are, well I guess that's punctuation, really. Are you a Doctor, by any chance?

The questions ARE my RESEARCH! ...just do and do - presumably you mean 'go and do' - thing is I have 2 children, 1 of 18 months and 1 of 5, so I don't have as much spare time as I'd like, so if you know of sites where this information, please post the URL if you can't supply it.

Many thanks.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 3:35:00 PM  
Blogger Marcin said...

Oi, Marenghi!

Of your concrete suggestions, I would agree with all but the first two - for almost anything but actual medical work, people are well placed to decide whether they want to risk inferior work, but pay less or not. You, however, seem to think that people are too stupid to run their own lives and make their own choices, and should only buy what the great and the good tell them to.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 3:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

in your above post, you are pretty much using the same argument as Dr Crippen!
*********************
Doh! Garth exactly.

I think you miss the point ACP

This argument mocks your own existence- hence how can you say 'exactly' to this??????

Also if a 'maxi-nurse' is allowed to practice autonomously, ie see patients and diagnose/manage without supervision, then you are merely nit picking, and this 'maxi-nurse' is doing work for which they should have a medical degree.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 3:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oi Marcin!

surely in your utopian dream there would no need for lawyers or rules, as people can decide all these things for themselves, after all why should people have to abide by any rules or regulations?

why not legalise crack, paedophilia, heroin et al?

who needs any regulation of anything at all?

Complete people power would lead to quite a few problems I think

The training for all professions leads to exams and tests of one's skills and knowledge.

It is essential that these standards are kept high and regulated/protected, especially as regards the medical profession.

I think if it was put to people and explained throughly, then patients would choose to have proper consultant led care over care from less trained less competent quacks.

Look at other professionals:

accountants, engineers, lawyers, architects etc

They all have to go through a proper training system and pass their tests.

It is ludicrous to suggest that you can do away with this and let Joe Public decide.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 3:53:00 PM  
Anonymous Funy pseudonym said...

Why do so many nurses state "i'm a surgical nurse" or "i'm a theatre nurse" when there is a problem on the ward? Often i hear this as an argument as to why they cannot do whats needed.

ANP... if you really want to play the who's got the biggest academic CV i think you may loose.

ANP do you have a field you specialise in?
I want to know as i get the feeling your comfort zone may be bigger than it should be.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 4:22:00 PM  
Blogger Amy said...

Funny Pseudonym

I AM a theatre nurse. I haven't worked on a ward since I qualified - and that is many years ago. So I wouldn't have a hope in Hell of knowing what to do on a ward - in fact, I'd have to do a Return to Nursing course to be allowed near one. I CAN do what's needed - so long as it is in theatre!

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 4:54:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anonymous,
before you take the spelling moral high ground again,

I know less is not spelt les, there are such things as typos even though you arrogantly seem to assume they are something else:

"Oh yes, anon: poor spelling. It should be 'bugger OFF', not 'of'."

Bugger off you ignoramus

(is that spelt correctly enough for you?)

---------------------

Ooh- 'great' comeback. An eloquent rebuttal against someone having the temerity to think the connotation of animal cruelty with Nurse Practitioners, and a disciplinary procedure against a vet NOT accused of animal cruelty, is somehow offensive and inappropriate.

(I'm being ironic- you don't come across as someone who would get that without being told, so I'm telling you in advance.)

What next for the picture book- child porn and holocaust victims?

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 6:15:00 PM  
Anonymous Dr TC said...

I'm always puzzled that the NP brigade (particularly ENPs) seem to use the "we don't need to undergo the same sort of training because we have x years of experience", as if that suddenly confers a degree of omnipotence and infallibility. My own experience and common sense suggests otherwise.

Every week I see simple fractures mismanaged because the ENPs involved do not understand the principles of history, examination and treatment. The management of a wrist fracture in an 80 year old is going to differ from a healthy 30 year old in a manual job, yet they both turn up in a poorly applied cast 2 weeks later. The famous "medial malleolar fracture" which again turns up 10 days after the injury in a below knee cast with gross talar shift due to the un-noticed prox fibular #. The numerous soft tissue injuries clogging up the clinics because the ENP "isn't happy" to make a decision. I could go on. To a lesser extent I see this with A&E doctors, particularly inexperienced ones. The difference between the two groups is how they handle feedback. By and large the doctors are keen to know about mistakes so as to avoid them; mostly they are receptive to explanations as to why this patient should have had x rather than y in this particular case. Giving feedback to ENPs is frankly like speaking to a brick wall - the majority just don't want to know because they've been doing this for 10 years and that's how it's always been done/you need to speak to my line manager/I'm an autonomous practitioner/I don't have to answer to you etc. I'm not trying to deliver a bollocking, just trying to ensure that the patient gets the appropriate treatment tailored to them, not a reflex plaster/sling/2 week appointment. I think that is something called holistic care which the ENPs seem to think that they have some sort of monopoly on :) Seriously, I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of ENPs who, when given any kind of feedback on a case have said "thanks for that, now I understand it better and I'll go and look that up". It seems there is almost some sort of inverse snobbery attached to ENPs being taught by those who, whether they want to admit it or not, know a bucket load more about the management of these patients than they do.

To give another example - by and large when I operate with senior theatre staff, who have many years experience, I find that their behaviour changes depending on the case involved. In a straightforward elective joint replacement, I almost do not need to ask for the next instrument - they have done hundreds of these cases and know the order of the procedure. However, when the same staff scrub for a trauma case they often offer the wrong instruments or do not anticipate the steps I may take to achieve a fixation because they do not understand the principles of treatment. Experience can greatly assist, but does not substitute for, understanding.

Again, this is not a point appreciated by a great many NPs who seem to get caught up in the whole "autonomous practitioner" mode that they will not accept possibly helpful advice just because it happens to be coming from a doctor rather than another NP.

I suspect that this is due to the fact that NPs may be relatively senior nurses who may even have had supervisory or management responsibilities and cannot cope with the fact that they now occupy a fairly lowly position within a medical heirarchy.

Anyhoo, hats off to the RCVS for wanting to maintain professional standards. Perhaps the GMC could learn something from them.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:02:00 PM  
Anonymous Funny Pseudonym said...

Amy i think your post has supported what i was trying to say.

I wasn't being detrimental to those who work i na specialised environment doing a specific job. It's Mr ANP who maintains he is an "expert" without qualifiying in what area or what makes him so.

I'm sure your years in a theatre are a great assistance in doing your job. However if you were asked to be ab "advanced theatre practitioner" (not sure if they exist already) would you say ... "well years in theatre will enable me to do some surgery with a little training".

I have never been helped out with anatomy/ surgical answers by the nurse/ ODP. maybe they just want me to go red.

Not even going to bother with spelling..i need to spend more time proof reading my reports not these posts :)

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 7:53:00 PM  
Anonymous the a&e charge nurse said...

dr tc - perhaps you are not quite ready to subscribe to the new and exciting illiterati hypothesis - yet this has not prevented you from advancing your own arcane theory which castigates NPs as fallen managers drowning in the shallow end of the diagnostic pool.

Unable to apply a rudimentary backslab, let alone interpret a mortice view these former office busybodies would not recognise a joint effusion even if the ankle was twice the size of an elephants leg - and the pacaderm was suffering with end stage heart failure.

But perhaps this no suprise given that the clinical governance at your hospital appears to be so feeble that no remedial measures have been taken to protect patients over the last 10yrs - what a disgrace that is.
And why does it take two weeks to sort out a fracture clinic appointment ?

This local difficulty could be mopped in two minutes by naming and shaming [if, as you claim your gentle attempts at education have been shat on by the surly NPs]
Send letters to the Trusts nursing director and senior A&E consultant - then the Trusts clinical director if this abysmal state of affairs does not result in some serious arse kicking.

Tuesday, June 19, 2007 10:59:00 PM  
Anonymous dr tc said...

Calm down A&ECN, you're usually a bit more sensible and something of a voice of reason on here :)

I haven't "castigated NPs as fallen managers drowning in the shallow end of the diagnostic pool". I've suggested that the behaviour I have seen exhibited by the majority of ENPs I have come across could be explained by the fact that they are usually senior nurses who do not seem to cope well with asking doctors (especially junior drs and especially non A&E doctors)for advice. Whether this is intentional or subconscious, who knows. The end result is the same - friction between the teams and a poor deal for the patient.

Not sure about the illiterati hypothesis - most ENP referrals come with at least 3 pages of essay-like notes some of which is occasionally relevant. Sometimes they spell pachyderm correctly too :)

In the last 5 years I have worked at 5 different hospitals from a level 1 trauma centre to several local DGHs. In all, the above attitude is apparent, as is the total apathy from the powers that be when problems are highlighted.

Don't feel that I'm picking on ENPs - the reporting radiographer at my latest hospital who is known as Stevie Wonder amongst my fellow ortho SpRs was reported by myself to the clinical director of radiology. His response? "I realise there have been some problems, but the thing is he's done a course so he's now training the other radiographers to report so we can't really stop him or re-train him without upsetting everyone". Keeeerrrist!

To be honest, if you think that that under the auspices of clinical governance this matter could be "mopped up in 2 minutes" you must be joking! Without wanting to sound like a conspiracy theorist, the same people you would raise it with are exactly the same people who have a vested interest in keeping things just as they are:

The A&E senior consultant? He likes the ENPs whistling through the "minor" injuries so that the SHOs/SpRs sort out the 90yo off legs/collapses and the 4 hour target is hit for another month. The fracture clinic will pick up any problems and all A&E films usually get reported in a few days, don't they?

The senior A&E nurse/matron? How dare you criticise the ENP for this without discussing it with me first, I've known them for 10 years and they have far more experience than the SHOS blah blah blah.

The director of nursing? That'd be the one interviewed in the NT last week about their booming NP training program which is "challenging boundaries" and "empowering stakeholders" and other such modernist guff. The same director of nursing who quite likes the income from the local uni for their advanced/NP course placements.

Strangely none of these illuminati are present to explain why little Johnny's displaced and now rapidly consolidating SH2# distal radius is going to give him a stiff funny shaped wrist for the next couple of years. Or why the ENP that missed the barn-door clinical/XR findings will be just as likely to do the same next week since they don't have any formal feedback mechanism in place.

As for the 2 week wait - a combination of 2 factors. The first is as I mentioned above the brainstem reflex of: colles #/wobbly backslab/sling/NSAIDs/2 week # clinic/hand this to the reception on the way out. This could be addressed by saying that all referral have to be seen in # clinic the following day, as was done in one hospital I have worked out given the "quality" of the A&E dept there. The second factor is the swathe of minimal injuries that never required follow up in the first place but get referred anyway just to be on the safe side. Perhaps more supervision would help this, but then you run into the whole "I'm autonomous" brigade.

In closing - a quick question, since this obviously pertains to your speciality - are you and your fellow ENPs encouraged or required to spend any time with your local orthopaedic team as part of your professional development? I only ask since in 5 years I have never seen an ENP or extended/advanced scope practitioner attend a fracture/ortho clinic. I can't think that they would not benefit from this sort of outside teaching....

Wednesday, June 20, 2007 12:29:00 AM  
Anonymous the a&e charge nurse said...

dr tc.
Thank you for taking a moment to provide such a detailed, and on the whole fair respone - this is infinitely preferable to the monkey, baggage handler, and now illiterati taunts.

The authentic tone of your account make the implications all the more depressing - as it seems various senior bods are no longer willing to act in the patients best interest, presumably because they are held in thrall to a few arbitary targets.

To address one or two of your points directly, yes I am an ENP, and a sessional ENP teacher at x2 uni's.
For what it's worth my own view is that an ENP services stands or falls [more or less] by the quality of orthopaedic referrals - if we can't get that right then there really is no point in ENPs turning up for work.

I have been somewhat taken aback by your post because unlike crass name callers you have actually elaborated the clinical issues in a reasonably balanced way.

It will be of no consolation to patients at your hospital to know that we adopt a very different approach at the department I work in, for example injuries without radiological evidence of fracture, or soft tissue signs [posterior elbow fat pad, knee haemarthrosis, etc] are usually followed up in A&E clinic.
While almost all paediatric x/rays are reviewed by a senior unless the ENP is as sure as they can be that history, clinical exam and radiograph do not add up to a fracture - while the significance of overlooking a Salter Harris 5, etc is drummed into them.

Suspected scaphoids, thumb UCL injuries, possible rotator cuff problems, acromio-clavicular strains, etc, etc tend to get brought back to A&E clinic in the first instance. Obviously ruptured achilles, shoulder dislocations and the like come your way.

I have always thought the ortho SpRs & ENPs got on reasonably well over the last 10yrs, and unlike your lot we have even been known to receive the odd orthopaedic flavoured compliment - so I am frankly amazed that the ENPs have not been receptive to any constructive feedback that enhances their trade.

I have sat in on the fracture clinic but admittedly not for a year or so [while accompanying a fledgling ENP during training] - but I can promise you that it will not stop me writing to the ortho seniors to check out if the situation at out Trust in anyway mirrors that described in your yours.

Wednesday, June 20, 2007 11:54:00 AM  
Blogger Megan said...

My friend broke her hand, went to the ER, and was seen by a doctor. He missed the fracture. It can and has happened to a doctor too. It was diagnosed the next day when she went to an orthopedic specialist.

Wednesday, June 20, 2007 2:50:00 PM  
Blogger Marcin said...

Anonymous, whom I assume to be Marenghi in further disguise, such a straw man does you no credit.

I have never argued for the abolition of law, or qualifications, only that it not be required that anyone be required to have qualifications to ply any trade other (human) medicine, and trades where there are consequences for third parties (other than those which are too remote).

This gives people a choice whether to use the accredited practitioners or not.

I'm now going to go ahead and assume that in your fantasy world a licence would be required before writing or commenting on blogs.

Wednesday, June 20, 2007 4:23:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm fascinated to read about minor injuries in A&E units getting treated by nurses. When I got hauled into an A&E unit with a dislocated ankle, I was treated by man who's a consultant, a professor and a full colonel, with the exciting addition of IV ketamine. I could read up his CV on the net afterwards, including his extensive publication record. Strangely, at the follow-up appointments, the other consultants refused to accept that I'd been injured in the first place (how careless of me not to photograph my foot with the sole resting at 45 degrees to its usual plan) and I was off crutches in 72 hours and out of the aircast in two weeks. I'm guessing, six months later and with no ill-effects other than the occasional dull ache after running a few miles, that I got a rather better deal from the Defence Consultant Advisor in Emergency Medicine that I would from a Nurse Practitioner, and although it was my first trip to A&E since 1982 I should make a note of Selly Oak being a good place to end up.

Wednesday, June 20, 2007 5:05:00 PM  
Anonymous A&E SG said...

A&E charge nurse:

I'm a career middle grade with 15 years A&E experience. I agree with many of your points.

BUT -

"It will be of no consolation to patients at your hospital to know that we adopt a very different approach at the department I work in, for example injuries without radiological evidence of fracture, or soft tissue signs [posterior elbow fat pad, knee haemarthrosis, etc] are usually followed up in A&E clinic."

You follow up all your patients with STI in clinic???

Forgive me, but what are your staffing numbers?

And wouldn't it be better to employ people who have the training background to be able to filter out those who do not need to reattend? What is the point of having ENPs if you just have to safety net to the nth degree? More relevantly, what is the cost saving?

BTW I agree with the comment about a significant proportion of ENPs being unwilling to ask a doctor if they are unsure. They'd rather send the problem to a clinic - any clinic - and not have to think about it, than admit to less knowledge than a Dr. And that's really sad. You sometimes get an SHO like that, but they're usually hauled out by the consultant and told to stop being arrogant and self-serving. But of course, you can't say that to a nurse who is behaving exactly the same way.

I got told off by a NP once because 'we all do our own dressings now' and I'd asked a (non ENP)to do mine for me. The fact that I was the senior doctor running the department, had four patients to review and an expected Cat1 case was lost on her. 'we're all the same now,' she kept bleating. 'We're not your handmaids any more.' If it hadn't been totally unethical I'd have told her to go and manage the shocked, septic three year old when he arrived five minutes later, while I 'did my dressings'.

Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:20:00 PM  
Blogger the A&E Charge Nurse said...

Thanks middle grade,

Our A&E review clinic is driven [to a certain extent] by reduced availability of ortho slots.

We have x4 consultants plus 24/7 SpR cover.

Clinics run Monday to Friday and offer x6 slots each day.
We also have a CDU for stable asthmatics, renal colics, small pnuemo's, uncomplicated pylonephritis, etc, etc.

So what do ENPs [or indeed other A&E clinicians] bring back, well typically;
Abscesses 2/7 post-I&D.
Cellulitis x1 IV shot of BenPen/fluclox in A&E home with orals and early review.
Clinical scaphoids.
Knee effusions with equivocal exam and NAD on acute radiograph.
Shoulders that may need subsequent physio or ortho referral.
Thumb sprains unless able to exclude collateral ligament rupture.

To a certain extent all of the above require either continued treatment, physio or further review by another clinician [usually a GP or ortho].

Obviously we could discharge more stuff with the 'come back if there's a problem' safety net, or go to your GP - but I know of at least one senior doctor who discharged a patient who subsequently required ACL surgery.

Wednesday, June 20, 2007 10:38:00 PM  
Blogger raymond said...

'I got told off by a NP once because 'we all do our own dressings now' and I'd asked a (non ENP)to do mine for me.'

O how this attitude is finally breaking my spirit. When I started my job, I was responsible for two or three minor ops lists, and was free to attend theatre and clinic. With the advent of the NP that has been trained in the department, I haven't been given an op list for 2 months. With EWTD I have barely been to theatre. When I am on the ward (which is a lot more often now) I am constantly berated by nutty ward sisters for being a doctor.

I often hear the sisters on the ward bleat about their 'management styles' and how they compare, how good they are at 'management'.

What the fuck is going on? Where does this end? Would this all end if doctors collectively became all nice and malleable and stopped ranting and raving about mad stuff like patient care and clinical standards, the twats.

Thursday, June 21, 2007 1:11:00 AM  
Anonymous Stiltskin said...

Now I've had the opposite experience. Going to A&E after injuring my leg when it was stood on in a game of rugby, I was seen sent for x-ray and then told by a very nice doctor that I'd just strained my ankle. It didn't feel like a strain to me (pain was above the ankle and tender on the bone) but the doctor didn't think I needed to see the x-ray.

Still hurting the next day I went to a different hospital's MIU and was seen by a NP who thought it may be fractured, another x-ray we looked at it together and the NP pointed out the fracture.

The point I'm trying to make is it is very easy to take an single incident and say all NPs/Doctors are like this. And before you say you have x number of other stories showing it's true I'm pretty sure I can point out an equal number of stories of the other group failing in some way. Unfortunately no matter how long the training or how good it is some rubbish people still make it through.

Thursday, June 21, 2007 8:54:00 AM  
Anonymous Sitting on the fence said...

I come back to one of my earlier comments: why is the NHS apparently so full of people (on both sides of the fence) who don't seem to realise that people trained by different routes to you (or even the same route) just MIGHT have something useful to add... based on (variously) training, expertise, experience, what they might have seen once, etc etc.

Too many people in the examples quoted sounds like they are sure they know everything and COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE WRONG.

No-one ever knows everything they need to. And no-one is ever incapable of being wrong.

One of the classic arguments for having more than one person working on a problem (any problem, from a crossword to a maths equation to a scientific question to a political one) is that different people bring different things, and this usually gets the problem solved quicker/better.

Thursday, June 21, 2007 2:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Dr TC said...

A good few comments above....

A&ECN: I suggest getting the opinion of the ortho SHOs/SpRs as well - I suspect the results would make for interesting reading :) Regarding your follow up clinics, ankle sprains and acute knee injuries (not acutely locked knees which would benefit from early a'scopy) make up a significant proportion of new # clinic appointments - by and large they are resolved by the time they see us and a review at 7-10 days in A&E would free up the # clinic to see early (within 24-48 hrs) those patients in whom there is a serious concern (kids, periarticular #s etc)

A&E SG: Interesting that someone from within the speciality shares the view that ENPs are often unwilling to ask the assistance of junior doctors but prefer to refer to a clinic instead. If this is unconscious, it's unfortunate. if this is deliberate then it's frankly pig ignorance and should be challenged by all concerned.

Raymond: Interesting point regarding SCPs. One can argue that they compete with juniors for training cases, take longer to train, require close supervision and are not cost effective. The biggest problem for juniors though I suspect is again one of attitude and how they come across as a group; demanding the title of SCP rather than "surgical assistant", pushing for "proximal" supervision by a consultant somewhere in the hospital rather than direct supervision (an arrangement which is not supposed to exist even for senior SpRs), autonomous referrals and discharges etc etc. By getting so wrapped up in the whole ego thing they can easily put peoples' backs up - that's the major bugbear I have come across and it's the one that they seem to have the least insight into.

Stiltskin - fair point, the plural of "anecdote" is "anecdotes" not "data". However, when you have the same experience week in week out you do start to see trends. In my own humble experience though I would say I get more inappropriate referrals from ENPs rather than A&E doctors by a country mile.

Sitting on the fence - I agree, having multiple people working on the same issue from various routes is the best way of dealing with a problem, but this only works when the information flows both ways and people are prepared to challenge their own knowledge and learn something new (you have 2 eyes, 2 ears and only 1 mouth for a reason as they say!) If, as I have suggested above ENPs generally have less knowledge of a particular injury and are less willing to ask for help they will tend to make the facts fit the theory, rather than the other way around when they come across something that doesn't quite fit the pattern.

Thursday, June 21, 2007 5:39:00 PM  
Anonymous NurseQuacktitioner said...

Hi Dr Crippen - I thought that I might share one of my consultations with you. This morning Ms P , a new patient came to see me to get her Dianette prescription. She had been given Dianette by her previous GP ostensibly to help a very mild acne across the chest and shoulders.Imagine my shock to find that she not only suffered from focal migraine, but also had a strong family history of thrombo embolic disease. She told me that her GP had not mentioned risks of Dianette. Hurrah for Nurse Quacktitioners - what say you?

Thursday, June 21, 2007 6:06:00 PM  
Anonymous nhs culler said...

all nurses and surgeons + doctors are a load of pervers who pray on the unconcious. dirty fuckers all deserve to be culled.

Monday, January 21, 2008 3:59:00 PM  
Anonymous NHS CULLER said...

all NHS nurses, surgeons and doctors, are a load of perverts who prey on unconscious patients. dirty fuckers all deserve to be culled

Monday, January 21, 2008 4:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Griffin said...

Suicide bomb the NHS bastards kill them all. Fucking perverted freaks.

Saturday, February 02, 2008 1:26:00 AM  

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DR CRIPPEN'S DIARY

Dr John Crippen's weekly diary. The trials and tribulations, the pleasures and pitfalls of family medicine in the modern British National Health Service.

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