A challenge to the Taxpayer's Alliance (TPA)
The Taxpayers’ Alliance (TPA) blinkered hypcrisy is an ever increasing source of annoyance. The TPA has but one bland belief. Taxes are too high, and should be reduced. In their prominently displayed mission statement the TPA says:
Taxpayers' Alliance Mission Statement
We will oppose all tax rises
That is it. No exemptions. No explanation. No penumbra. No analysis other than that in which the conclusions have been pre-defined. Tax is a bad thing. Surprising they have not joined up with the Libertarian Party amongst whose avowed aims is the abolition of income tax. Come to think of it, maybe they have.
My friend Wat Tyler has just posted an article purporting to expose the scandal of unaccountably high salaries in local government. Sadly, and unusually for him, the post is Daily Mail style TPA tabloid fodder. As always with the TPA it takes cheap shots and appeals to the gut rather than the intellect. Featuring prominently is the fraudulent bogey figure of £100,000. £100,000 is, in terms of averages, a good salary, a very good salary. The journalistic fraud comes because of the TPA’s disreputable spin which suggests that anyone not working in the private sector who earns £100,000 or more is ipso facto an undeserving, lazy, overpaid fat cat.
A few weeks ago, the TPA “did” the NHS and, as is their wont, “named and shamed” people in the NHS earning high salaries. This time, it is local government. They “name and shame” the following
And, says the TPA "More than 800 council officials are being paid £100,000 a year and 14 enjoy higher salaries than the Prime Minister, a report has claimed.”
I do not know any of the ten chief executives in the TPA list, nor do I know any of the 800 officials being paid more than £100,000 a year. They may all be lazy, incompetent and stupid, fraudulently hitching a ride on back of the taxpayer. That is what the TPA, sailing close to the law of defamation, wants you to infer. And it uses that classic bit of economic prestidigitation - quoting the salary of the Prime Minister. On any sensible economic terms, the Prime Minister’s salary is absurdly low, as are MP’s salaries. We should pay them all properly and ban the expense accounts. The TPA knows full well that MP’s pay is a complex but separate issue but that does not stop them using it for an inflammatory out-of-context quote. That is how the TPA works.
Take a look now at Wat Tyler’s video made, without shame, in view of Canary Wharf.
In promulgating the TPA’s incendiary views on local government, unlike the TPA, Wat at least has the courage to address the issue of City fat-cattery. He casts his eye towards the city and suggest that all the people working there are “fearsomely bright”.
That, Wat, is bollocks, and you know it. The city-trading John-Johns have a certain barrow-boy cachet but “fearsomely bright” are not the first two adjectives that spring to mind when describing them. And who goes into stock-broking? Mostly those Tim-nice-but-dim public school boys with two surnames and two A levels, one usually in geography, who cannot get into the traditional professions but still want to wear a suit. So, for them, it is a choice between the stock-brokers, the wine merchants or the estate agents.
Do not get me wrong. There are some very clever people in the city and, in terms of invisible earnings for this country, they are rightly and properly well rewarded. But do not swallow Wat’s implication that the City has the monopoly of British intellectual talent. It does not. The city has its fair share of time-servers who are going nowhere fast but who have kept their heads down and are quietly trundling on to retirement and their generous pension pots. In city terms, they will only be paid trivial salaries, so no one is too fussed. Trivial salaries like £100k. They are nice people, they don’t make waves and no one wants to sack them... and to the City £100k is not a mark of achievement. Quite the contrary. A salary of £100k is what you "achieve" at the age of 25 if you are going anywhere.
Wat implies that the Chief Executive of Kent , who earns a penny or two under £230,000 a year, is overpaid. That is about a third or quarter of what a partner at Clifford Chance is earning. How many of those partners have the same responsibility as the Chief Executive of Kent?
As far as the TPA is concerned the public sector can do no right and private sector can do no wrong. Look at this article from Wat in March 2007, comparing the efforts of the public and private sectors:
Project One - "Construction on the £4.3 billion Heathrow Terminal 5 complex began in 2002. Since when, the project has successfully moved 9 million cubic metres of earth; erected the roof of UK's biggest free-standing building; transported the 900-tonne top cab of a new 87m high control tower 2km across the airfield; bored over 13km of tunnels for rail and baggage; diverted two rivers; and installed over 30,000 sq metres of glass facades. All T5's footprint is contained within a former sewage works at the western end of the existing airport, situated between the two runways, adjacent to the M25.Ha. Ha. Ha.
With 366 days to go (leap year in 2008), over 90% of construction-related work is complete and the project remains on time and on budget."
Project Two - The £800m Wembley stadium finally opened for business. It's nearly seven years since the last game at the old stadium. The project has been delivered a year late, and around £200m over budget (see full grisly timeline here)
PS I've just noticed there seems to be a difference between these projects: T5 is being built for a private sector customer that understands the value of money and time; Wembley was built for a quasi public-private partnership mumble, involving such notorious wastrels as Ken Livingstone,
Wat goes on to say that the people in the City have to satisfy their customers. Hmmm. Let’s talk to all those people who bought endowment policies, or all those nurses who were persuaded to come out of the NHS pension scheme and transfer to City run private pension schemes. Did the big city insurance companies who were responsible for these frauds sack their chief executives? Did they offer compensation before they were forced to by the lawyers? Did they ever even offer a genuine apology? We have not even started on Northern Rock yet. The tax payer paid Sir Richard Branson £5 million in expenses for his kindness in submitting his daring asset stripping bid for the company.
Wat takes the opportunity to have a dig at Ken Livingstone. An easy target. The man is mad and is, of course, shortly to get the sack and rightly so. He deserves all that is thrown at him and more, but it is not right to tar all government employees with the same brush. In any case, Ken was elected. He is not a local authority employee in the same way.
Finally, and true to form, the TPA moves onto its favourite game of “name and shame” and lists local authorities who have not been keen to announce their pay rates. Most people are not keen to announce details of their salary so the reluctance is understandable. But they are public employees, and so there is a right to know. The TPA as always leaves no stone unturned in pursuing its right to know.
I cannot take anyone seriously who sits at the “your salary is too big” table without declaring what they earn themselves. It’s hypocrisy. So let's take a brief, Burning our Money style, look at the TPA itself.
Who are the fat cats at the TPA? What do they all earn.
Andrew Allum, “founding chairman and governor of St Georges Secondary School”, what a good egg, oh dear, I nearly missed the fact that he is a management consultant. So we can assume he is a multi-millionaire. If you are not, Andrew, drop me an email with details of last year’s meagre stipend and I will publish it.
Dear old Matthew, another all round “good egg”
“Outside of his work at the TPA, Matthew has visited Azerbaijan (2000), Ukraine (2001) and Serbia (2006) on behalf of the Westminster Foundation.”Nice.
Who picked up the tab for these junkets? The only Westminster Foundation I can find is the Westminster Foundation for Democracy. Surely this cannot be an organisation with whom someone in the TPA would have dealings? Not the Westminster Foundation for Democracy as in:
“Established in 1992 and registered as a Company Limited by Guarantee, WFD is an independent public body sponsored by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, from which it receives annual funding of £4.1 million.”£4.1 million of taxpayers’ money? Taxpayer funded international junkets? Oh dear, oh dear. I think the TPA and BoM should take a long look into that one.
But, junkets or not, Matthew really is a good egg. Really. He is “one of us”.
In November 2007, Matthew was presented with the Conservative Way Forward ‘One of Us’ award by William Hague that well known multi-millionaire after dinner speaker and author.Why are there no howls of anguish from the TPA and Burning our Money? Hague is supposed to be a full time MP, paid by the taxpayer, and is supposed to be devoting his time to his constituents and to the House of Commons.
Then there is Florence Heath. “Florence currently works as a geologist for an international petroleum company.” She may not be earning a £100K but, do tell us, Flo, what salary do you have to struggle by on?
One can understand that the highest taxpayers in the country might be avid supporters of the TPA. And who ARE the highest taxpayers in the country? Fortunately, Wat Tyler has revealed all in Keeping the Poor in their place:
The only people who face 80, 90, 100% tax rates are the poor. That's because when they earn more, they not only have to pay tax, but they also face the progressive withdrawal of welfare benefits, such as housing benefit. Their Effective Marginal Tax Rate (EMTR) is consequently much higher.You would expect therefore that these people would be prominent supporters of the TPA.Let us have a look. Fortunately, the TPA has a list of its prominent supporters. (Full list here) I give you but a small selection:
Burning our Money
A selection of "prominent TPA supporters"Andrew Allum, Chairman, Tax Payers AllianceSir Anthony Bamford, Chairman, J C Bamford Excavators LtdPatrick Barbour, Non Executive Director, Microgen plcConstantine Folkes, Chairman and Chief Executive, Folkes Holdings LtdSir Rocco Forte, Chairman, Rocco Forte HotelsChristopher Foyle, Chairman, Air Foyle LtdMalcolm H.D. McAlpine, Director, Sir Robert McAlpine Ltd
There are no poor people on this list. There are no nurses, no doctors, no police officers, no teachers, and no probation officers. Tell me I am wrong, but this is a list of serious financial fat-cattery, all earning well over £100k a year, many earning over £1 million a year. These are the core supporters of the TPA. These are the people who are moaning about their tax rates. My heart bleeds.
Over the last ten years in particular, tax rates have risen by a huge amount, often stealthily. Something needs to be done about that. The great shame about the TPA is that, because it is little more than a right-wing multi-millionaire' mouth piece, it is difficult to take it seriously. It is spoiling the message it is trying to promote. To see a collection of multi-millionaires, wringing their hands in public, moaning about tax, and criticising the salary - paltry in their terms - paid to the Chief Executive of Kent is unedifying.
Maybe I have got it wrong. Maybe they are not hypocrites.
So, how about this.
A challenge to the TAXPAYER’S ALLIANCE
Will the founders of and writers for the TPA make a public declaration of their earnings?
Wat, will you make a start by telling the readers of Burning our Money what your total annual salary, including bonuses and benefits in kind, was each year for the five years before you retired, and also tell us the size of your pension pot?
I am sure you will not.
I am sure no one in the TPA will. I am sure that no one in the city will voluntarily admit to what they earn. They will say their salaries and bonuses are a private matter, not paid for by the taxpayer. Which is true. But in most cases, these salaries were paid out of the pension funds to which people on more modest incomes contribute.
Do not hold you breath waiting for the challenge to be accepted. Andrew Allum may share with you the gratuitous irrelevance that he is a school governor, and he reserves the right to criticise you and your salary, but he will not be telling you what he earns.
Until he does, unless the TPA changes its tabloid strategy of criticising all and sundry, it is a busted flush.
Wat, will you make a start by telling the readers of Burning our Money what your total annual salary, including bonuses and benefits in kind, was each year for the five years before you retired, and also tell us the size of your pension pot?
I am sure you will not.
I am sure no one in the TPA will. I am sure that no one in the city will voluntarily admit to what they earn. They will say their salaries and bonuses are a private matter, not paid for by the taxpayer. Which is true. But in most cases, these salaries were paid out of the pension funds to which people on more modest incomes contribute.
Do not hold you breath waiting for the challenge to be accepted. Andrew Allum may share with you the gratuitous irrelevance that he is a school governor, and he reserves the right to criticise you and your salary, but he will not be telling you what he earns.
Until he does, unless the TPA changes its tabloid strategy of criticising all and sundry, it is a busted flush.
Labels: fat cats, high taxes, stealth tax, TPA hypocrisy, Wat Tyler
37 Comments:
A well-conceived corrective, Doctor. Bravo.
The problem for the TPA and those in the private sector who claim that they deserve their wages, is that of course no-one in the private sector gets what they "deserve" except that they supposedly come by their income through fair and square bargaining in an open and free market. You can believe that if you like.
What is clear is that there is no comparable market in private sector labour and salaries. These markets are very much not linked, in that no-one in the public sector is going to be able to step over to a comparable job in the private sector, nor vice-versa, except in the most limited cases. Perhaps Sir Rocco Forte could become chief executive of a housing association or other registered social landlord, but if so that would be the exception.
In the meantime, such comparisons are largely futile. Instead, the only useful suggestions would be to propose reforms to the manner in which pay is determined. If these county "chief executives" were subject to confirmation by vote of their "shareholders" or had their pay fixed by committees of directors who are susceptible annually to petitions to dismiss them, then there might be some comparison. Of course, I wouldn't suggest that shareholder control is especially strong, or good enough, but it is stronger than that obtaining in the public sector.
You miss the point. Which I believe you miss on purpose.
The TPA is a libertarian based organization. It also seeks to represent the people that ultimately pay your wages. Whether you want to believe it is the government or not. It is not, it is ordinary working poor people.
Libertarians like myself do not believe that the Welfare state and therefore the NHS works in the interests of the ordinary working person rich or poor. Which means in our perfect world neither would exist. Or would only exist in a much smaller form.
It is clear to us that if we wanted to start somewhere it would be nowhere near where we are now.
We would not be having a debate on whether you are paid too much or not, if we did not have an NHS. Because quite frankly if would be little or none of our direct business.
Free at the point of anywhere is a stupid enough way of running any system, but something that commands the difference between life and death being run so stupidly that also can not in reality be free anyway. To our way of thinking is EVIL in the extreme.
If people can use a credit card to pay for a holiday and a west end meal. Why not for their own health?
If they can use insurance to protect the very house they live in. Why can they not use it to protect the body their soul lives in?
If we had the money in our pockets instead of Gordon Browns almost bankrupt over borrowed one.
If we did not like you personally, or the prices your hospital where charging, we could either do without the treatment.
Make sure we where more healthy in the first place.
Choose to die.
Go abroad for treatment.
Find a more cheaper hospital which employed less greedy more caring doctors.
Easily afford our own cheap or expensive form of health insurance.
Also sue the pants of you, if you messed up the job, and get rich quick that way. Instead of being fobbed off with a few hundred quid, while you lot get some cheap fresh meat to help you learn your job on.
Many of these options we don't have because of the fascist socialist or straight forward socialist system of health care we have in the UK.
So all we can do is complain.
Even when we know as sure as eggs is eggs that people like yourselves and the obviously fascist government you work for, have as much chance of listening to us 'the tax cows to the slaughter' as running this country for our interests instead of their own.
Which is PERFECTLY NONE whatsoever.
Atlas shrugged
You point out that the Chief Executive of Kent has more responsibility than a partner at Clifford Chance. He may well be in charge of more people, but as the NHS and other government systems have shown repeatedly, complete failure to do a job will not result in being fired and left unemployable, merely relocation. For example, the chief executive of the hospital trust where over fifty people died from C-Dif, who was re-employed in a different role elsewhere not long after.
If I object to the salary being paid to Terry Leahy I can refuse to shop at Tesco.
If I take the same approach because I object to the salary being paid to the chief executive of my unitary council I will be put in prison.
I would not normally bother to go through a comment like yours, but on this occasion I shall because you epitomise all the TPA stands for, and demonstrate so well why they are wasting their time.
You miss the point. Which I believe you miss on purpose.
I do not know what point I have missed and, if I have missed on, I did so accidentally. Please explain The TPA is a libertarian based organisation.
I want you to explain EXACTLY what you mean by “libertarian”. I know you won’t say. The word is often used to camouflage people of extreme right wing views. The BNP, of course, purport to be libertarian/
It also seeks to represent the people that ultimately pay your wages.
Oh really? So where are the legions of ordinary taxpayers amongst the TPA supporters? All I see is a list of multi-millionaires
Whether you want to believe it is the government or not. It is not, it is ordinary working poor people.
Don’t be patronising. It is the TAXPAYER who pays the public sector wage bill. That is not primarily what you call the ‘ordinary working people’. The biggest tax ‘take’ comes from the middle class tax payers. I am a middle class taxpayer. Do not try to disenfranchise me. Libertarians like myself do not believe that the Welfare state and therefore the NHS works in the interests of the ordinary working person rich or poor. Which means in our perfect world neither would exist. Or would only exist in a much smaller form.
OK, well, you need to explain that. Your “belief” is not good enough. If there were no welfare state at all, who would look after the impoverished mentally ill? Put them in the work house? Let them walk the streets and beg? What’s another hundred thousand tramps? It is clear to us that if we wanted to start somewhere it would be nowhere near where we are now. We would not be having a debate on whether you are paid too much or not, if we did not have an NHS. Because quite frankly if would be little or none of our direct business.
OK, so how are you going to provide health care for the poor? Please explain. Free at the point of anywhere is a stupid enough way of running any system,
I agree
but something that commands the difference between life and death being run so stupidly that also can not in reality be free anyway.
I agree
To our way of thinking is EVIL in the extreme.
Now you are showing your true colours. The NHS is not EVIL. The funding of the NHS is not EVIL. The New Labour government, much as I hate them, are not EVIL. They are wrong. If people can use a credit card to pay for a holiday and a west end meal. Why not for their own health?
I agree. But what about the people who don’t have credit cards? What about schizophrenic tramps? What are you going to do with them? If they can use insurance to protect the very house they live in. Why can they not use it to protect the body their soul lives in?
Oh dear, you really are ignorant. Did you know that a lot of people do not insure their houses because they cannot afford it. A lot of people don’t have houses. People on supplementary benefit don’t buy insurance. Are you going to go out and sell health insurance to schizophrenic tramps? If we had the money in our pockets instead of Gordon Browns almost bankrupt over borrowed one.
don’t understand If we did not like you personally, or the prices your hospital where charging, we could either do without the treatment.
don’t understand Make sure we where more healthy in the first place. Choose to die. Go abroad for treatment. Find a more cheaper hospital which employed less greedy more caring doctors. Easily afford our own cheap or expensive form of health insurance. Also sue the pants of you, if you messed up the job, and get rich quick that way. Instead of being fobbed off with a few hundred quid, while you lot get some cheap fresh meat to help you learn your job on. Many of these options we don't have because of the fascist socialist or straight forward socialist system of health care we have in the UK. So all we can do is complain. Even when we know as sure as eggs is eggs that people like yourselves and the obviously fascist government you work for, have as much chance of listening to us 'the tax cows to the slaughter' as running this country for our interests instead of their own. Which is PERFECTLY NONE whatsoever.
Well, I can’t be bothered to go through that toxic rant. But YOU are the problem. The TPA, unfortunately, is pitching at people like you and, whilst it continues to do that, no one will ever take them seriously. Which is a shame, because we could do with a rational sensible pressure group outside government to monitor the current absurd levels of tax. Atlas shrugged
Sunday, March 30, 2008 10:51:00 PM
Sad. Maybe one day there will be a well orgnanised pressure group to fill the hole the TPA has left.
John
You point out that the Chief Executive of Kent has more responsibility than a partner at Clifford Chance. He may well be in charge of more people, but as the NHS and other government systems have shown repeatedly, complete failure to do a job will not result in being fired and left unemployable, merely relocation. For example, the chief executive of the hospital trust where over fifty people died from C-Dif, who was re-employed in a different role elsewhere not long after.
Sunday, March 30, 2008 10:54:00 PM
+++++++
I don't disagree with you. But what is your point? Are you suggesting that taxes are too high because the public sector has a monopoly of incompetence?
Have you ANY IDEA what Northern Rock is costing the taxpayer?
John
pogo said...
If I object to the salary being paid to Terry Leahy I can refuse to shop at Tesco.
If I take the same approach because I object to the salary being paid to the chief executive of my unitary council I will be put in prison.
+++++
You deserting Tesco will not have much impact.
20,000 people deserting Tesco might.
20,000 people standing outside a town hall would have a similar effect. AND you can vote your councillors out and vote in someone who will change the regime.
Did the Northern Rock investors manage to vote out the board?
John
""
You deserting Tesco will not have much impact.
20,000 people deserting Tesco might.""
You are still missing the point.
As a shopper at Tesco I don't need to get 20,000 other people to join me.
Against my local council I do.
That is the difference.
Who was it who said that they've never met a poor libertarian?
The TPA is a tiny, minority organization which, through its scandalously misleading title,claims to represent every tax payer in the UK. It does not.
Why it gets so much media coverage I don't know.
The partners at Clifford Chance earn as much as they do because their clients agree to pay their hourly rates. The clients have the chance to go elsewhere but they do not, hence one might conclude that they are paid a fair price. I don't recall having any say in the pay of the chief executive of my local council.
Also they are not paid salaries but a share of the profits, which would turn into a share of the losses if the firm was not profitable.
Lastly, they are personally (i.e. financially) liable for not only their own errors but those of their partners. Does the chief executive of any council bear a similar liability? Of course not.
Dr Crippen,
You might have declared your interest:
"GPs' average earnings for last year (2005-06) rose to £118,000, according to estimates by the Association of Specialist Medical Accountants, a 63 per cent increase in three years. "
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/sick-pay-massive-rise-in-gps-salaries-worsens-nhs-cash-crisis-431801.html
I share some of your concerns about the TPA but I think they are pretty on the money with this particular report.
All public bodies publish senior salaries as do public companies. My own income is pretty transparent as my income is derived from a limited company that I own (pull report off Companies House website for £1) and my councillor's allowance is published on Ealing's website. It is strange that senior salaries in local authorities are not routinely published.
The LGA were quick to make a comparison between LA chief executives and FTSE 100 salaries. This is simply ludicrous. Most FTSE 100 companies make profits that exceed total revenue expenditure of most LAs. FTSE 100s typically have to persuade the public to part with their cash for cups of coffee, water supply, groceries, etc transaction by transaction. Local authority chief execs essentially work out what they need to keep everything going and then make an arbitrary charge that cannot be negotiated with no alternative suppliers. They do pretty much turn the handle.
Sure the TPA are a little sensationalist but that kind of is their job.
I feel my comments were quite measured considering I have spent a large part of this weekend dealing with NHS Direct and my (nameless) GP's out-of-hours service on behalf of my baby daughter. All for the bargain price of £118K compared to April 2006 median gross weekly earnings were £447 or £23,244 per annum. That puts GPs on 5 times average earnings Dr Crippen.
Dr Crippen - it surprises me that you have so much time on your hands to compile such a lengthy post. As a GP shouldn't you be taking the weekends off and spending time with your family? After all, don't you have to work so hard during the week to earn your £120k plus that you need the downtime?
I think you have gone off your trolley on this one - the TPA are a making a perfectly valid point in drawing attention to the level of salaries paid to council CEOs. It's taxpayers' money and we have a right to know where it goes.
Council tax levels have risen enormously in real terms over the last 11 years but most of us haven't noticed a proportionate increase in the quantity and quality of services that we receive. Where has the money gone? Plugging the gap in the council staff's inflation-proofed pensions? Increased staff numbers?
I think it's very reasonable to ask why I have had to pay above inflation increases on my council taxes year-on-year. Just as it is to ask why so much of the extra taxes I have paid for the last 11 years have been wasted in so-called "investment" in the NHS.
Your post is probably the nadir of your career as a "blogger of the people". I hope you can recover your reputation.
Hi Phil
I don't dispute that I earn over £100K. I have always been transparent about my earnings on this blog.
I have NOT had a 63% pay rise in the last three years. Wish I had.
I am sure GPs are on 5 times average earnings. I would hope so with the intelligence, training and experience needed to do the job.
NHS Direct is a joke and the GP out of hours service are now run by the government and are, by and large, crap.
++++
What has this got to do with the TPA and local government? Bugger all. You have swallowed the tabloid propaganda they spout which is, of course, exactly what they want you to do.
There are huge inefficienceis in the public sector which need addressing. The tax increases over the last ten years have been absurd, and that needs addressing.
Your comment, though obviously heartfelt, is off the point. The question is, how do we get the tax bill down? Time the TPA addressed that.
John
Hi Diabolo
Dr Crippen - it surprises me that you have so much time on your hands to compile such a lengthy post.
Heavens, I only work two days a week, and never at night. I have to do something to pass the time
As a GP shouldn't you be taking the weekends off and spending time with your family? After all, don't you have to work so hard during the week to earn your £120k plus that you need the downtime?
Hell no. I spend most of the time reclining on the sofa whilst Alan Johnson pops peeled grapes into my mouth
I think you have gone off your trolley on this one - the TPA are a making a perfectly valid point in drawing attention to the level of salaries paid to council CEOs. It's taxpayers' money and we have a right to know where it goes.
They are not just "drawing attention" they are slagging them off as being overpaid fat cats
Council tax levels have risen enormously in real terms over the last 11 years but most of us haven't noticed a proportionate increase in the quantity and quality of services that we receive. Where has the money gone? Plugging the gap in the council staff's inflation-proofed pensions? Increased staff numbers?
I agree. I pay these taxes too
I think it's very reasonable to ask why I have had to pay above inflation increases on my council taxes year-on-year. Just as it is to ask why so much of the extra taxes I have paid for the last 11 years have been wasted in so-called "investment" in the NHS.
I agree. I pay these taxes too
Your post is probably the nadir of your career as a "blogger of the people". I hope you can recover your reputation.
Blogger of the people? Heavens, never seen it like that.
But uncharacteristically you have entirely missed the point. There is HUGE waste in the public sector, and I don't need the TPA to tell me about that. And taxation has increased far too much over the last ten years. But slagging off the CEO of Kent is not going to help that.
I agree with much of what the TPA says - but they need a constituency. They need to attract people like me. As it is, they only attract fascist hyenas
John
Taxes pay for services. Don't raise taxes or cut them and it's the services for the vulnerable that feel the brunt of the cuts. It never seems to be the budget for new year fireworks...
Council Tax Freeze all over Scotland being a case in point.
Nobody likes taxes but they are a necessary "evil".
Tax is nothing more than legal money with menaces.
We all accept the fact because there are services that we think the state should provide.
However, due to the method of raising the cash, its natural for us to be touchy about where and how it is spent.
Public sector workers get the kind of job security that the rest of us can only dream of. They get gold plated pensions that my grandchildren will get the benefit of paying for. A vast number of them spend their time doing things that many of us would not voluntarily give our cash for.
On the other hand, nobody in the private sector gets any of my cash unless I voluntarily give it.
Government annual spending totals nearly £620 billion; that is £1.7 billion per day, £70.5 million per hour. Are you saying that all of this is spent wisely and that there is no room for improvement?
On the other hand, nobody in the private sector gets any of my cash unless I voluntarily give it.
+++++
Oh dear, oh dear, serf.
Do you not have a pension? Do you not realise that the city folk who manage it salami it every year, whether or not they have managed it well? Did you never buy and endowment policy? If you DO have a pension fund, do you not realise that the government FORCES you to hand the lump sum over to the city who will then give you an annuity rate which you could beat with a deposit account in any high street bank AND keep hold of the fund? Did you notice that that nice Mr Applegarth is walking away with £750k of taxpayers money for screwing up the rock? Did you not realise that the taxpayer forked out £50 million in fees to the city for the work they did in submitting their asset stripping proposals.
My point is this. The public sector does not have a monopoly of incompetence. I have no doubt there is waste in local government but also I have no doubt that there are some valuable employees. The TPA draws up these ad hominem hit lists of public sector workers and assumes that, because they are well paid, they much be ripping off the taxpayer.
Too simplistic for words.
For all we know, local government might work better if they paid these people more.
The TPA is the mouth piece for multi-millionaires to moan about tax. It was set up by a rich management consultant. They are absolutely right about the current penal level of tax under New Labour. But, if they are going to be and effective pressure group, they need a broad based constituency and they have not got one.
John
Alex said...
"The partners at Clifford Chance earn as much as they do because their clients agree to pay their hourly rates. The clients have the chance to go elsewhere but they do not, hence one might conclude that they are paid a fair price."
I am a partner in an engineering consultancy doing work mainly for government departments and local authorities. I have always been amazed at the hourly rates we can get away with. This is because I work in a specialised field and the rates have been established by my 'competitors'. No-one except me and my competitors has the necessary expertise and so the only 'elsewhere' my clients can go to is my equally expensive competitors.
"... Lastly, they are personally (i.e. financially) liable for not only their own errors but those of their partners. Does the chief executive of any council bear a similar liability? Of course not."
As in the case of lawyers I and my partners have a similar responsibility for our errors but that is why we take out Professional Indemnity Insurance (indeed most of our clients require that we do so).
I have been impressed by most of the senior professional staff in the civil service and local government with whom I have dealings. They work very hard and are on salaries of only about half the levels of equivalent professionals in my own organisation.
My God you medics are arrogant.
I can say with my hand on my heart that I do not earn £100,000 pa. I would be delighted to earn half that.
I would also love a rebate of the money I pay into the NHS - you are simply not worth it.
Cut NHS funding and give people their money back. That will get your noses out. People in need will certainly be able to find much better value healthcare elsewhere and be treated as valued customers rather than statistics.
Health tourists will seek asylum in France.
I am utterly sick of medics sneering down their noses at everybody who is not up to their intellectual and moral high standards while creaming off many billions of pounds from the public every year.
I did not get 5 A*s at A level and I do not save lives for a living. I am just an ordinary person who wants a second opinion.
Oh dear. Rich people (doctors) complaining about rich people (TPA) complaining about what rich people (chief executives) earn. I'm sure you all get on fine when you bump into each other on Phuket.
Hi Adrian
Love that comment. Haven't been to Phuket. Do go to Minorca, though, and meet lots of lawyers there.
I don't know the definition of "rich" is. If it is earning more than £100K a year, then I am rich. Don't feel it, I must say.
New Labour has gone tax mad over the last ten years. It affects me, of course it does, but the people it affects most are the ones on the margins. In the old days top rate tax was paid by high earners only. Nowadays, because Gordon did not index the tax bands, it is paid by policemen and experienced teachers. Something wrong there. So you would think that the TPA would be full of these people on the margins. But it isn't. Read through their lists of prominent supporters. These are all seriously high earners, earning far more than me.
The vitriol that pours out against anyone working in the public sector who earns over this magic £100k line amazes me.
Why is there no vitriol against the directors of Northern Rock? It is people such as them who support the TPA
Extraordinary.
John
John
"Health tourists will seek asylum in France"
Not any more they won't or at least only if they are over 65. Sarko has blocked that one
Talking of the "tough market in private sector salaries", rewards for performance, sacked if screw up (err. .. not)...
...I see where the Chief Exec of the disastrous Northern Rock is getting to slope off into the sunset with a million pound pay-off. Nice. I'm sure it is all "contractually required" but it still sticks in the craw.
Speaking as someone who trained for a decade plus to end up in my mid-40s earning well under £ 50 K pa, I'm with Adrian on this one.
It goes without saying that I depise NuLab, but - as a nurse - I've never felt that the likes of the TPA speak for me. Waste infuriates me, of course, but where Wat sees a "simple shopper", I'm more inclined to see a "revolving door" - one heavily greased by the City types he so admires. The Banks involved in financing (and re-financing) PFI consortiums being one glaring example. We are being played for fools.
And if I approached "risk" in the way that much of the Square Mile approaches whizz-bang financial instruments, many of my patients would be dead. And I would be in jail. And I very much doubt Bob Diamond would take on that kind of responsibility for, oohhh, all of about £11 an hour.
John,
I can't help thinking that possibly you should stick to stuff that you know something about.
If you DO have a pension fund, do you not realise that the government FORCES you to hand the lump sum over to the city who will then give you an annuity rate which you could beat with a deposit account in any high street bank AND keep hold of the fund?
Yes, John; do you see? It is the government who are quite deliberately screwing us over by enforcing the City's pension monopoly.
Oh, and don't use the term "fascist" when you clearly have no idea what fascism actually is.
And, whilst you may realise that much of the tax that you pay is wasted, many people do not: that is why the government now spends some 45% of GDP.
If people are to realise that much of this is wasted, then organisations like the Taxpayers' Alliance are valuable for doing so.
And maybe, just maybe, if the poor did not feel the brunt of massive tax rises, then they might feel that donating to the TPA would be worthwhile: unfortunately, they cannot afford it because the government takes their money.
On another note, I absolutely object to you calling the TPA "fascists" and then trying to tie them into the Libertarian Party with absolutely no evidence whatsoever.
The TPA is of no party; those who work for them are not allowed to belong to any party either. They certainly have nothing to do with LPUK and for you to make that baseless inference is, frankly, irritating in the extreme.
Oh, and I have never seen the BNP describe themselves as libertarians but, if they have, then they are lying: they are a collectivist party and are, as such, of the Left and certainly not libertarian.
Get a grip, Doc.
DK
Well done - I should have thought of it myself.
The real issue is the hundreds of millions of tax payers money spent on overpriced manaqement consultants.
Working in the NHS I have seen many many many millions of pounds wasted when someone on a modest salary could have done the same thing.
I have a venture capitalist friend who often tells me about the well known facts in the private sector that the NHS and other public services are rich pickings for management consultants and private contractors who take the less street wise NHS staff for high cost financial rides. We need decent CEOs and Directors to be able to fend off this assault. The issue is therefore that we need to recruit the best we can on salaries to cut out the rip offs from the less scrupulous.
DK, tut, tut.
I can't help thinking that possibly you should stick to stuff that you know something about.
Just because you disagree with me does not mean that I don’t know anything about it. Tush! You can do better than that.
If you DO have a pension fund, do you not realise that the government FORCES you to hand the lump sum over to the city who will then give you an annuity rate which you could beat with a deposit account in any high street bank AND keep hold of the fund?
Yes, John; do you see? It is the government who are quite deliberately screwing us over by enforcing the City's pension monopoly.
Well, I certainly agree with that. It is government pension legislation that featherbeds the insurance industry by handing it the pension pot for keeps. That needs to be changed. I talk to American friends and the ones who do not have special knowledge of the UK system DO NOT BELIEVE that we in the UK are not allowed access to our own pension funds. It is an outrage. But it does not alter the fact that it is a huge featherbed for the city, and that it is abused. And that is the point, isn’t it? We hate the current tax rates but there many examples of the city and the city also being in receipt of money extracted from us by force.
Oh, and don't use the term "fascist" when you clearly have no idea what fascism actually is.
I know exactly what the word means, classically, historically and in a modern context. I don’t know which use of the word, in context, you have taken umbridge about. Do tell. Quite possible that I was indulging in a little derorgatory hyperbole but then I learnt my blogging skills, such as they are, from the DK!!
And, whilst you may realise that much of the tax that you pay is wasted, many people do not: that is why the government now spends some 45% of GDP.
Christ alive, DK, I work in the NHS, I wrote the book on how to waste taxpayer’s money. The waste that goes on in the public sector beggars belief. And much could be done to contain it. But the simplistic ad hominem approach used by the TPA is not going to help. It merely pisses people off. The TPA was founded by, and is supported by, some of the highest earners in the country. Singling out and naming a list of local government officers who earn more than £100k is counter productive and disgraceful. It is also bordering on defamatory. Is there any evidence that the Chief Exec of Kent is incompetent? That his pay rate is ripping off the tax payer? Answer, none at all…or if there is, the TPA do not produce it. So it was a gratuitously personalised, unpleasant attack.
If people are to realise that much of this is wasted, then organisations like the Taxpayers' Alliance are valuable for doing so.
When the TPA starts pitching at ordinary people rather than being a mouthpiece for “prominent supporters” all of whom are very highly paid then people will start to listen to it and take it seriously
And maybe, just maybe, if the poor did not feel the brunt of massive tax rises, then they might feel that donating to the TPA would be worthwhile: unfortunately, they cannot afford it because the government takes their money.
Perhaps
On another note, I absolutely object to you calling the TPA "fascists" and then trying to tie them into the Libertarian Party with absolutely no evidence whatsoever.
Ah! I see why you are cross. No, I don’t think the Libertarian Party are fascists. I know it is early days for your fiscal policies, but to come in talking of abolishing income tax is pie in the sky, and very similar in its simplistic approach to the TPA’s mission statement of reject ALL tax rises.
I was quite excited to think the Libertarain Party was going to bring some radical thinking to health care economics. Sadly, from what I have seen so far, like all the other parties you seem to be doctrinally constrained by the erroneous assumption that there is a perfect “system” or “process” that can solve the “free at the point of entry” NHS. There is not. I wish there were. Interestingly, you are proposing to enquire into the PFI scandal. And, by god it is a scandal. The scandal of private, market driven companies ripping of an NHS managed by incompetents. I shall watch with interest
The TPA is of no party; those who work for them are not allowed to belong to any party either. They certainly have nothing to do with LPUK and for you to make that baseless inference is, frankly, irritating in the extreme.
All I said was that, in view of the similar approach to tax, maybe they had joined the LPUK. Why is that irritating?
Oh, and I have never seen the BNP describe themselves as libertarians but, if they have, then they are lying: they are a collectivist party and are, as such, of the Left and certainly not libertarian.
The problem with parties like the BNP is that they DO tend to clothe their extremism in libertarian (small L, generic) sounding policies and ideals. I just had a look at their site for the first time. God, isn’t it awful. But they say:
Torch bearers of culture
The rich legacy of tradition, legend, myth and very real wealth of landscape and man-made structures is one of our island’s richest treasures. The men and women of the British National Party are motivated by love and admiration of the outpouring of culture, art, literature and the pattern of living through the ages that has left its mark on our very landscape. We value the folkways and customs which have been passed down through countless generations. We enthuse with pride at the marvels of architecture and engineering that have been completed on these islands since the construction of the great megaliths 7,000 years ago.
Liberties
Above and beyond our activities in the political world, we daily work with our people in their homes and communities addressing the fundamental issues of civil liberties and reverse discrimination. Increasingly our people are facing denial of service provision, failure to secure business contracts as well as poor job prospects as both reverse discrimination excludes our people from the school room, workplace and boardroom. A key role of the British National Party is to provide legal advice and support to victims of repression and those denied their fundamental civil rights.
You can spin all that as libertarian (small L, generic) but we both know it is no such thing.
Get a grip, Doc
Oh dear, you are cross, aren’t you!”
.
John
Government annual spending totals nearly £620 billion; that is £1.7 billion per day, £70.5 million per hour. Are you saying that all of this is spent wisely and that there is no room for improvement?
Monday, March 31, 2008 9:33:00 AM
Christ alive, DK, I work in the NHS, I wrote the book on how to waste taxpayer’s money. The waste that goes on in the public sector beggars belief. And much could be done to contain it.
John
Monday, March 31, 2008 3:04:00 PM
Thanks for answering my question indirectly. Seems to me that you are in complete agreement with a substantial part of the TPA case.
Christ alive, DK, I work in the NHS, I wrote the book on how to waste taxpayer’s money. The waste that goes on in the public sector beggars belief. And much could be done to contain it.
John
Monday, March 31, 2008 3:04:00 PM
Thanks for answering my question indirectly. Seems to me that you are in complete agreement with a substantial part of the TPA case.
+++++
I suspect that local government though bad is not as bad as the NHS and that much could be done to save taxpayers' money there too.
But, I repeat, publishing the names of ten high earners in local government achieves very little.
And I am NOT a supporter of the TPA because of their ludicrous mission statement of "being opposed to all tax rises"
It is a question of balance.
And I am still waiting for the bigwigs in the TPA to tell us all how much they earn.
But they won't
John
‘but they need a constituency. They need to attract people like me.’
Why? They’re not a political party, they’re a pressure group. Most pressure groups don’t have a manifesto or a range of objectives at all, they just have one aim and they keep banging the same drum over and over again.
It may be tiresome and you may completely disagree with them, but that’s what a pressure group is. Liberty, for example, is no different and their director, Shami Chakrabarti, is always being quoted in the papers and on TV.
All it means is that Liberty and the Taxpayers Alliance are better at gaining publicity for themselves than other pressure groups. If you don’t agree with them, just ignore them!
Your point about the list of prominent supporters all being wealthy, well(ish) known people is nonsense, I’m afraid, Dr C. All ‘groups’ do this, be they political parties, pressure groups, charities, the BBC…
I don’t understand why you’re so cross about the issue of pay. Private individuals are entitled to keep their salary package to themselves; those who are (however indirectly) employed by taxpayers’ money aren’t. It’s an easy distinction.
I guess you could make a case for saying that only those taxpayers who live in, for example, Ealing are entitled to know what the Chief Executive of Ealing Council earns, but they most certainly are entitled to that information, surely?
Dr. Crippen,
I am one of those "poor people" who support the TPA; I earn less than 75% of the mean salary of this country - that puts me above the "relative poverty line" but only enough to make sure I live comfortably. The TPA's arguements may be brassive, their message absorbed by overzealous, bloodthirsty news monkeys, but their call is not about reducing taxation for reductions sake (which incidentally is not what LPUK's policy means either; at least in my eyes) - it is a call for better spending and more tax efficient savings from a state that is all too ready to pour its failings onto the backs of the ones who pay the most in tax receipts.
You are right that perhaps there is too much public money in private pockets, but all you are showing is a need for less public money and more MY money; your example of the zero-income tax policy from LPUK is just one such example.
I dont particularly care how much councillors for our various councils earn, or how much the TPA's bigwigs or Wat Tyler earn(ed), nor do I care how much you earn Dr. Crippen; I am certain you are worth every penny - but I seriously wonder what you could do with 2-3 times the amount of money (assuming public bureacratic inefficiencies mean 33p for every £1 reaches us, whereas 50p reaches us from private insurers - I dont have exact figures on the latter) to spend on a patients health if they were allowed to spend it privately or from a sociallised medical scheme; you could subsidise a poorer persons healthcare with tapered relief and abolish free at the point of entry and all the evils that engenders from the ingrates that infest A&E departments and GP surgeries at the end of a work day.
My point is thus; the only way you can abolish fat cat city spending from the public purse is to cut the public purse off - prosecute fraud by rule of law; dont protect it through state incompetence.
P.S. I am also a fully paid up member of LPUK; I believe in free will and using it to protect my own rights and those of others - I also believe in socialised medicine but not in the hands of political incompetents who couldn't tell rat shit from Aspirin.
Blimey! You have taken a lot of stick on this, John. And spent a lot of time answering your critics.
I have read it all - how sad is that? - but was most touched by the comment in your "fisk" of my comment: "But uncharacteristically you have entirely missed the point."
Does this mean that you actually take any notice of what I write? It's staggering - because no one else does!
Cheers - but do slow down a bit. You'll end up like that DK bloke if you don't!
Hmmmmmm. This article just reinforces my belief that the reason the NHS is falling apart is because Medical Professionals insist on interfering in business decisions. Stick to what you know best and leave business to those that understand it.
Hmmmmmm. This article just reinforces my belief that the reason the NHS is falling apart is because Medical Professionals insist on interfering in business decisions. Stick to what you know best and leave business to those that understand it.
++++
And Hmmmmm to you to.
A snotty little comment. Would you like to justify what you say? Probably not.
John
You made a good point, although some commentators seem to have missed the wood for the trees a bit.Your life is so wonderful,Reading your article is a kind of enjoyment.Thank you.
Tactical Flashlights
r c helicopter
video game
希望大家都會非常非常幸福~
「朵朵小語‧優美的眷戀在這個世界上，最重要的一件事，就是好好愛自己。好好愛自己，你的眼睛才能看見天空的美麗，耳朵才能聽見山水的清音。好好愛自己，你才能體會所有美好的東西，所有的文字與音符才能像清泉一樣注入你的心靈。好好愛自己，你才有愛人的能力，也才有讓別人愛上你的魅力。而愛自己的第一步，就是切斷讓自己覺得黏膩的過去，以無沾無滯的輕快心情，大步走向前去。愛自己的第二步，則是隨時保持孩子般的好奇，願意接受未知的指引；也隨時可以拋卻不再需要的行囊，一路雲淡風輕。親愛的，你是天地之間獨一無二的旅人，在陽光與月光的交替之中瀟灑獨行.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
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