Demagoguery and Intransigence
Difficult to decide which makes me more angry. The demagoguery of the Roman Catholic leaders or the intransigence of Gordon Brown.
If the survey in today’s Times is correct over 60% of the population support the government’s embryo research proposals. Current legislation on embryo research is nearly twenty years old and, for that reason alone, needs redrafting. I would not pretend it is an easy area ethically and, where ever the line is drawn, its impact will have a degree of arbitrariness leaving a handful of people on either side of the line unhappy. The line still needs to be drawn.
There are many devout Roman Catholics, including some eminent politicians, who cannot in conscience support this legislation and their rights to dissent must be respected. But, as so often with the Catholic Church, they are let down by their leaders:
Cardinal Keith O'Brien used his Easter Sunday sermon to criticise the legislation.
He described it as a "monstrous attack on human rights, human dignity and human life", adding that it would allow experiments of "Frankenstein proportion”
The Roman Catholic hierarchy has some experience of monstrous attacks on human rights and human dignity. It is hard to take seriously a church hierarchy which has consistently protected paedophile priests and which, to this day, remains homophobic.
Most extraordinary is the behaviour of the Prime Minister. He simply does not know how to pick his battles. He cannot win and so should not fight. Free vote or not, many Labour Roman Catholics will not support this legislation. There is an even more important reason for allowing a free vote. He should respect the rights of his Roman Catholic colleagues.
Gordon Brown does not need to wave his big stick. On a free vote in the House of Commons the legislation will pass easily. He will get the legislation he wants. And, by allowing a free vote, we will see the House of Commons at its best, freely debating a difficult and challenging subject.
Labels: demagoguery, Gordon Brown, intransigence, Roman Catholics
21 Comments:
"There are many devout Roman Catholics, including some eminent politicians, who cannot in conscience..". Surely if they are devout Roman Catholics, it's not their own consciences that will influence their votes, but Papa Ratzi's? I'd expect Protestants, Jews and Atheists to be consulting their own consciences.
The Roman Catholic leaders want a free vote so that Catholic MPs can follow the Catholic line determined by the Catholic hierarchy. Now that's hardly a free vote is it?
Dearieme
You really must not get me onto Obersturmführer Ratzinger, I would make too many people cross.
But I do sincerly beleive that it is wrong to try to force ordinary Catholics to vote for this legislation.
And silly too
John
The thing about tribalism (aka religion) is that, aside from the fact that tribalism is the root cause of all wars throughout history, each tribe is (internally) fundamentally decent. People intrinsically know what is right and what is wrong. But it all goes catastrophic when the tribal elders tell their members what they must think and say, especially about non-members of the tribe.
It may be that embryonic research based upon hybrids of H. sapiens and R. ratus yields beneficial results, in which case, follow the Labour Whip, and damn the RC Church. Or, it may be an abomination against the Creator's wishes, in which case follow the RC Whip and damn the NuLab Whip.
Either way, the MPs will be following instructions if not allowed a vote free of party whips and free of tribal dogmas.
Why is this vote even happening?
To quote John Lennon, here's a 'Spaniard in the Works':
How much longer are we, as the most intelligent species on the planet, with exploding populations and dwindling resources, going to carry on attempting to make ourselves live longer and longer? It cannot go on.
To mis-quote Nigel Moleworth:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v22/n04/jone01_.html
Any fule kno that it's ekonomic madniss.
Iron, in the presence of water and oxygen, turns to flaky rust. In a urea rich solution, it positively vanishes! I thus assert that Iron Gordon has been pissing himself so badly about the economic mess that Darling (bless!) has inherited, the PM's metal has fizzled away.
Dearieme: A Catholic's conscience not only should be their own, it must be so. The key is to inform the conscience properly. It may seem a fine distinction, but it's a significant one to me.
In any case, what's all the fuss about embryonic stem cells? We can create pluripotent adult stem cells from epithelial skin cells, so why not just use those, and bypass the ehtical debate entirely? (Honest question-- I haven't heard of any uses for which those would not be appropriate.)
As you say, Dr C, a savvy Prime Minister would recognise that the vote will be carried, therefore a magnanimous gesture would have earned him brownie points without costing him anything.
This all demonstrates that Brown may indeed be clever at politicking behind the arras, but is incapable of being a leader.
If anyone in the future wants to decline medical treatment based on this research on grounds of conscience, that's fine by me.
What right do they have to impose their views on me?
eric, it seems to me to be improper to give only one group an "out" on this vote. If it's a free vote for them, it should be a free vote for everyone.
I'm too ignorant to answer your scientific point, but too well-informed to believe everything that The Official Voice of Science tells me.
Of course there is, as the Devil's Kitchen points out, a case for saying that MPs are not in parliament to vote with their consciences. They are there to represent the views of their constituents. Have all of these Catholic MPs crying foul consulted their constituents to see what they would like them to do? I doubt it.
I don't think this is a Roman Catholics versus others debate. It is just that the RCs have made the most noise.
You don't have to be religious at all to find the notion of human/animal hybrids (even at a purely 'egg' stage of existence) totally repugnant... and a dangerous road to go down.
I suspect most GM protestiors are not religious - but they have concerns over fish/vegetable combinations.
Whether or not going down this road will lead to cures for nasty deseases is irrelevant. The NAZIs carried out a lot of useful research (which has saved lives) on Hypothermia - dunking Jews,POWs into ice cold baths.
Not saving young car crash victims would release a lot of transplant organs and therby save or enhance life.
The means don't justify the ends.
The waters of the debate are being muddied by the false suggestion that the only people against this Bill are Roman Catholics. Its being presented as an anti-Roman Catholic Bill. We are also being subjected to a catalogue of tragic personal stories in a cynical move designed to appeal to the emotions. The suggestion is that the week after this Bill goes though all disease will be cured and anyone against it must be in favour of suffering.
Another unsettling factor is the campaign being mounted by the Jewish community. Christians are being called liars by the same journalists and renta-quotes who villified and defamed anti-Iraq war campaigners and anti-GMfood protesters.
nicepost
But if he forces the issue, then Those worthless no-marks Ruth Kelly & Des Browne will have to stand down giving Brown the chance to replace them with people who arent hated/openly mocked (there's another catholic cabinet minister too, but he/she's so inconsequaential that I can't remember who they are)
Religion poltics and medicine! The 3 best conversation stoppers at a party!
religion politics and medicine??
Well one would have assumed NHS blog DOCTOR would occasionally metion MEDICNE!!!!
Trouble is most it is so jumped up it is harder and harder to define maybe????
We wonder what happened to blogs to be of interest?
Anonymous Anonymous said...
Religion poltics and medicine! The 3 best conversation stoppers at a party!
***************************
Actually I talways thought that quote should be "Religion, Politics and Morals"
Steve
hi everyone,
thought I would say a bit on this; I've followed the stem cell debate pretty closely because I have a vested interest in it (Alzheimers runs in my family and i'm looking after my mum, who has it.)
Embryo research has been going for 17 years and has not produced a single cure or therapy for anything. This is for three reasons
1. Embryonic stem cells cannot be used to treat adult tissue; they produce tumours when injected.
2. Embryonic stem cells have problems with host rejection becuase they are not genetically identical to the person being treated.
3. Embryonic stem cells, because they are cloned, have chromosome deficiencies.
For all these reasons, embryonic stem cells cannot be used to treat disease and probably never will.
From the Alzhiemers point of view, I find the debate particularly distasteful. All kinds of claims are being made about how embryo research will help this. It won't. Alzheimers is a 'whole brain' disease, where several different types of brain cell are affected and it's generally acknowledged that embryonic stem cells would only be useful in 'single cell' diseases such as Parkinsons.
By contrast, adult stem cell research has produced more than 80 cures and therapies for various diseases, including Parkinsons,crohn's, leukaemia, heart disease and spinal injury. Some of these are pretty spectacular, like the case of Dr Dennis Turner who was injected with his own stem cells for Parkinsons and went into remission for four years. He recovered to the extent that he was able to go on safari in Africa and got chased up a tree by a rhino. Embryonic stem cell research hasn't even got past animal trials..
I accept that not everyones going to like the Cardinal speaking out on this, John. But maybe what you should ask is this; if he hadn't spoken out, would we have had a debate on this? And shouldn't there be a debate on something as fundamental as crossing the species barrier and the inherent risk of susceptibility to animal disease that this might entail? When the HFEA is talking about 'regulation of inter-species embryos for research' I think it's time to worry.
Heres a link to a post on my blog about hybrid embryos, if you want to know a bit more about this;
http://juliemcanulty.blogspot.com/2008/02/when-moral-dilemma-aint-moral-dilemma.html
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