Tuesday, April 22, 2008

Dead bodies and Ash Cash



Have you checked in recently at The Daily Rhino?

If you haven’t, you should. It is written, well written, by a junior hospital doctor, and it is fun. He writes for the Medical Student Magazine, as did I. The Daily Rhino gives you some excellent insights into what it is like to be a young doctor. Beer, sex and hard work. Well, something like that.

The Daily Rhino has been picked up today by the BBC. By the PM programme no less.
Our main story this week came to us via listener Pauline Levey. She emailed to suggest we take a look at 'ash cash'. This is a fee that's required in order for doctors to release a body for cremation. It's currently set at a level of £71 each for two doctors, paid in cash on top of the doctors' NHS salaries. Pauline - whose mother was cremated a year ago - says the charge is unfair and cruel. Here she explains why. (BBC)
As the Americans would say, sorry for your loss, Pauline, but you are naive. You do not seem to mind that the undertaker charged you a couple of grand for the funeral, but I suppose that is different. I do not know if the words are yours, or the BBC's, but who ever wrote them is a poisonous fuckwit. Doctors do not hold on to bodies and blackmail families to pay them a fee before they will "release" them. It's the law of the land. The law insists that checks are made to ensure that people are dead before they are burnt.  Do you have a problem with that?

The Daily Rhino has not helped, for he has been writing about Ash Cash.
Ash cash. The sixty two pounds a doctor pockets every time a patient they have certified pops their clogs and is burnt to a crisp is nothing short of infamous. Known as the house officer’s privilege, it is the fund for Thursday night drinks all over the country. A colleague working on care of the elderly has effectively gone up a banding due to the vast amounts of ash cash he rakes in. No comment on his quality as a doctor, of course. Ahem. Yet when we are filling in the form, we all answer ‘no’ to the question ‘Do you have any pecuniary interest in the patient’s death?’ Despite some noble souls donating their cheques to charity, the rest of us catch ourselves secretly hoping that families opt for cremation. If a terminal patient is known to several doctors, we also hope they survive just until we’re on call and then we’ll be the one called to confirm, see the body after death and head down to patient affairs before anyone else beats us to that cheque. Well, perhaps that’s just me.The Daily Rhino
When you are a young doctor, death means nothing. It is something that happens to people on a different planet; to people older even than your grandmother. When I was a young houseman, I had to fill in death certificates. Then, if the patient was for cremation, and they usually were, I had to fill in the first part of the cremation form. This meant stating that I was certain as to the cause of death but most importantly that I was sure the patient was dead. To reach that state of certainty, I visited the hospital morgue, inspected the body, and then, drawing on my wealth of medical experience (I signed my first cremation form 48 hours after I first qualified) filled in the form. I had not got a clue what to put, but the secretary made lots of helpful suggestions, and I survived. Not a pleasant business. Best not to think about it. Best to laugh it off. And one did get paid a fee for doing it, which we called “Ash Cash” because that was traditional, and funny (ha! ha!) and eased the pressure. We used to crack jokes about death, and cancer, and foetal abnormality, and children with deformities too – ever seen the acronymn “F.L.K” in a child’s notes? It means “funny looking kid.” Ha! Ha!

I still go to the morgue. It is usually at the undertakers. Unlike the hospital morgues, commercial undertakers are not as scrupulous about refrigeration as I would like, but you don’t want to know that, do you? The undertaker’s typist opens the fridge, and slides the body out. Nowadays, the body is not from a different planet. It is not a body at all. It is a patient. Someone I have known for maybe twenty years. Someone whom I have looked after. Someone who is younger than my grandmother, younger indeed than my mother. And I look, and identify, and check they are dead, and feel sad, and a little guilty (could I have done better?), and above all else I satisfy myself that they are truly dead, and I wash my hands, and I fill in the form, and the typist jokes about this, that and the other, and she gives me a cheque, which I do not look at (I think it is for about £40) but which I will hand to the practice manager when I remember, and I drive back to the health centre to deal with the living, and I think that one day not long from now someone will slide me out of a fridge and look at my cold, dry eyed cadava, and I am quiet for the rest of the day, and when I get home the children notice and ask why I am quiet, and maybe I shout at them. I wish I was young again so that it could all be fun and “ash cash”, but that is not possible. My skin is no longer Rhino-thick for now I understand what I am doing, and how important it is that I do it properly. The last job you do for your patient. Important, then, to get it right.

What fee should I be paid for this work? I have not got a clue. The last funeral I organised for a close member of my family cost over £2000. £80 of that went to the doctors who made sure that their patient was dead. Is that too much? Beats coffins with fingernail scratches on the inside of the top lid.

I don’t care what the fee is. There is no amount of money you could pay me that would make me feel comfortable about this job. Young doctors deal with it, as did I, by cracking macabre jokes. I cannot do that any more.

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112 Comments:

Blogger Rohin said...

Thank you for the kind words about the blog, Doc. I have sculpted something of a reply.

It's a difficult subject. I opened the interview explaining we do feel unease at the system, but I agree with the point that there is no difference between a funeral home making a charge and a doctor receiving this fee. Or indeed a lawyer charging for completion of a legal document, which is what a crem form is. Plus the doctor doesn't make the charge, the undertaker does. If I choose not to cash my cheque, the family gains nothing - they have already paid.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 3:15:00 AM  
Blogger Dr. Thunder said...

I worked in care of the elderly as a houseman. I earned a lot of "ash cash". I've naively joked about it in front of non-medical friends, and they haven't been impressed. When I was a houseman I joked about it all the time with my medical friends. We were all either pretty immune to the nastiness of deah, or we were trying to deal with it by making jokes. I never joked about dead people before I started working as a doc. I don't think I became a bad person overnight.

I used to give every 2nd "ash cash" cheque to charity. I was a bit reluctant about claiming, until one of the undertakers told us he charges the same amount tot he family of the deceased, whether or not the doc takes the fee (ie he charges a fee up front for him to pay the docs...if they choose not to accept it, he keeps it.). So I figured it's better in my pocket than his, seeing as I did the work.

But I can see how it's difficult for the public to accept that terms like "ash cash" aren't disrespectful.

The irony is that it's mosly the yound interns who make jokes like this. But, by and large, they're the very ones who haven't lost their humanity yet. They're the ones staying back late every single night for no extra money to make sure their patients get decent care.

Don't begrudge them their 71quid, and a youthful indulgence in some black humour.

Dr. Thunder
www.twoweeksonatrolley.blogspot.com

Sunday, April 20, 2008 4:48:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Something always happens that brings us face to face with our own mortality. when that happens then it all changes for us. It happens regardless of if we are a physicain or not. I am not one.

When we are young and we lose our great grandparents we experience very little of the real greiving process. Our immediate world has not changed. We still have all the major players in our life, and great grandparents are usually really old. Certainly we care about them but it has effected our life little. Then one day we lose our grand parents and we notice something is now missing, but it is not the end of the world. We stil have our parents, siblings, and many times our spouses and own children by that time.

When we have lost our parents thats when it hits us. All of a sudden we know that next up, is us. We also feel a terrible lose once our parents are gone. We have lost the people now, who have been there for us all of our life. Even when we are married with our own familes, and our own home, we still have the security of knowing "home" is also where our parents live. I wonder sometimes if we ever really get over this loss. It also isn't just the loss, its knowing we are now the old people. It becomes something we think about far to often.

The reference to "ash cash" being a joke almost makes me sick. Although I can see how young Drs. could view it in this way. If they took every death as a personal loss how could they continue in this profession that asks so much from them? If my dying gives a few people one last laugh, well then thats ok by me.

One day, just like it happened with you as you got older, it will happen to them also. I doubt seriously if any doctors are out there hurrying along the death process to receive their check for sending them off some where. Also, I would be glad to pay an amt. for a professional to make CERTAIN I am actually dead.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 6:52:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A sensitive article, Dr C, eloquently describing how many of us feel about cremation forms. Of course there is one aspect not yet mentioned: the issue of the responsibility of certifying the absence of a pacemaker or other implant which would render cremation dangerous. Admittedly an exploding pacemaker is a novel way to scatter one's ashes, but the resulting lawsuit would fall on the unwitting doc who signed the crem form. The fee paid reflects the responsibility taken, but I still managed to feel uncomfortable about it. Now the fees paid by the police for the assault reports issued by A&E doctors (or 'bash cash'), that is guilt-free extra income . . .

Sunday, April 20, 2008 8:15:00 AM  
Anonymous E said...

“the rest of us catch ourselves secretly hoping that families opt for cremation. If a terminal patient is known to several doctors, we also hope they survive just until we’re on call and then we’ll be the one called to confirm, see the body after death and head down to patient affairs before anyone else beats us to that cheque.”

This all strikes me as:
1. In very poor taste
2. Anachronistic

Why should doctors be paid an extra bung for performing their duties for which they have already been paid once? And if they are paid a second time how can they argue they do not have a pecuniary interest (albeit a small one) in certifying that person dead? An undertaker is not paid twice for arranging a funeral.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 8:39:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Why should doctors be paid an extra bung for performing their duties for which they have already been paid once?"

Completing the paperwork if a relative chooses cremation is certainly not part of "my duties", in the same way that it's not "part of my duties" to write medical reports if the (living) patient chooses to take on life insurance.

It is private work, pure and simple. Why should I do it for free?

Sunday, April 20, 2008 8:59:00 AM  
Anonymous the a&e charge nurse said...

A fascinating juxtaposition of medical perspectives from both ends of the spectrum - and movingly told as well.

Despite an apparent dichotomy the views from both camps (novice vs senior) make perfect sense.

We simply feel what we feel, about death - then depending on the forum we are either at liberty or constrained from talking about what is actually going on in our head(s) - and in this case, in the workplace.

Method of payment is a secondary issue in my view (and far less interesting, to boot).
I suppose fees could be assimilated into the pay packet (thus removing the remote possibility of a perverse incentive for individuals) but I don't think that is what Dr Crippen is on about ?

Sunday, April 20, 2008 9:12:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Why should doctors be paid an extra bung for performing their duties for which they have already been paid once?"

Doctors get paid for work shock!

Sunday, April 20, 2008 9:23:00 AM  
Blogger Garth Marenghi said...

http://ferretfancier.blogspot.com/2008/04/my-heart-bleeds-mr-bully-imic.html

the fat twat demands sympathy, he won't get it from me.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 10:00:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anonymous said:

"Why should doctors be paid an extra bung for performing their duties for which they have already been paid once?"

Doctors get paid for work shock!"

Hmmmmmm.......this fee is nothing short of being a "tax" on the bereaved relatives. I certainly won't be paying over any money directly or indirectly for such an extortionate amount for so little work. Although my relatives want to be cremated I will deny their wishes and have them buried instead. It would never hand over such an extortionate fee to my GP who is already well enough compensated from my taxes and fuel duties.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 10:07:00 AM  
Blogger the little medic said...

"Why should doctors be paid an extra bung for performing their duties for which they have already been paid once?"

As has been said above, the signing of cremation forms isn't something that a doctor's salary includes. Something which has also been mentioned above is the responsibility taken when signing the form. I wouldn't sign something which could come back and bite me on the ass for nothing. Why should I?

One thing that I don't agree with is the phrase "ash cash" but I don't see anything wrong with the fee.

Perhaps I'll be better placed to comment come August when I start my f1 post in geriatrics!

Sunday, April 20, 2008 10:09:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Hmmmmmm.......this fee is nothing short of being a "tax" on the bereaved relatives"

Bullshit. It's a fee for a service. I`m sure that you feel the funeral charges are also a tax on bereavement. And the cost of the coffin - again a tax on bereavement....

Why should someone give up their own time for free because you choose to cremate a relative?

If you don't want the service, don't pay. And I`m glad that you're not one of my relatives - you sound like a complete tosser.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 10:12:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm not a tosser, YOU are the tosser. Talking of which it isn't that long ago that medical students got paid £20 a shot for doing just that...tossing into pots for sperm donation! that's where the phrase " complete and utter wankers" came from!

Sunday, April 20, 2008 10:29:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You'd deny the dying wishes of your relatives because you don't want to pay someone's fee for certifying something - let's let everyone else decide that one.

Regarding your bizarre comments about sperm donation (which isn'r restricted to medication students which you seem to think) - WTF?

Sunday, April 20, 2008 10:36:00 AM  
Anonymous Matt said...

Troll alert! Ignore him and he may go away.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 10:41:00 AM  
Blogger Vicky Pollard said...

What a bizarre idea - paying doctors basically to confirm death. I thought that was part of the job.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:01:00 AM  
Anonymous Matt said...

Confirmation of death and the provision of death certificates are part of my terms of service working for the NHS.

Cremation certificates are over and above that.

Cremation certificates are not about death confirmation primarily. What they are about is the destruction of evidence. Buried bodies can be exhumed. Cremated bodies are gone forever.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:10:00 AM  
Anonymous roman said...

Can't see the problem in paying the fee, especially when relatives of the deceased are prepared to pay farcical sums for horse-drawn hearses or luxury limousines, and fancy coffins that will be on display for a few fleeting hours before being buried or incinerated.

And surely the use of terms like 'ash cash' are part of the process that doctors have to develop to stop themselves being overwhelmed each and every day by their patients' personal sufferings and possible tragedy?

Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:13:00 AM  
Anonymous Crippo said...

It's not to confirm death. That is part of the job. You are certifying that the person who is being cremated is who they are supposed to be, there are no other circumstances that need investigating, and that they have no implantable devices which could go 'bang' in the oven. Read the first page of Iain Banks 'The Crow Road' for details.

The part 2 which GPs or the second doctor do are detailed, and if done on someone who was not your patient (usually the case with GPs) takes quite a long time. You have to see and examine the body, and 'question the medical attendant'

Having said that, we have never charged for this in hospital paediatrics. Wouldn't seem right, somehow. And to be practical the death rate is a lot lower, so there is not nearly so much work involved. If we ever do get a payment (unrequested, as I said) it is either returned or if that is difficult it goes to a child charity.

But that's just us. These forms can be involved, and can take quite a lot of time. Why can we not be paid for them?

Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:16:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good article.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:16:00 AM  
Anonymous Funny Pseudonym said...

I have an interest as a young(ish) medic doing the forms.

I can say that the way the juniors talk about "ash cash" is the same reason the young smoke or do drugs...the consequences don't apply to them.

You can shrug off cancer and liver chirosis as its a lifetime away.

I was so thin skinned when i started i used to rush to rooms with screaming patients "help me, help me"...now i just ask if thats normal for the patient, or visit once and if they start as soon as i leave the room again i know i can't help much and move on.

I have cried for patients, all of them still alive and never in front of them. The poor young man with learning difficulties i met on elective who will never use one of his arms properly again because he couldn't read the instructions he was given. The lovley elderly woman who was able to fall and be on the floor for 4 days because no one ever visits her then die despite all efforts.
The kids with serious genetic problems who laugh off thier condition.


A few jokes in bad taste make the work lighter and keep me able to face the few really bad bits of the job without having to lose the humantity that makes me (i hope a better medic).

My "ash cash" will go on a few drinks for the juniors and i promise i will remember the patient while i drink them.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:27:00 AM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

Crippo

Yes, I agree about the medico-legal side of the crem form. Of course, so often the given "cause" of death is a complete fiction unless, as I do these days, you write "old age".

But if you read the crem form through it is also about confirming death, but mainly about satisfying yourself that there is nothing suspicious. I am still flabbergasted that Shipman's nefarious activities were not picked up by the Registrar. Makes you realise that no one actually reads the forms, or not with their brain switched on.

As I get older, I find visits to the morgues more and more stressful and depressing and, as I say, I can no longer take refuge in macabre humour.

The example of not charging for doing cremation forms on children is interesting. I think you should. The job still has to be done, and it is even more distressing than normal.


John

Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:33:00 AM  
Blogger Rohin said...

Matt and crippo have explained what I was going say succinctly - the death certificate is about confirming death, the crem form is something quite separate. It is a legal undertaking.

To e, yes the quote is in poor taste. Much of what I say is in poor taste, I do tend to quite revel in the black humour stereotypically ascribed to juniors. But that passage is necessarily dark, to counter my subsequent experience of dealing with a bereaved relative.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:42:00 AM  
Anonymous Matt said...

The example of not charging for doing cremation forms on children is interesting. I think you should.

I agree. Should an undertaker undertake the funeral of a child at cost without taking any profit?

Several years ago I did a Court of Protection certification on a patient. This attracts a hefty fee. Unfortunately said patient died within days of my examination. His solicitor rang me and asked if I would waive my fee as his client had died. I said that I would waive mine if he would waive his.

I got my fee!

Crippo, I fully understand what you mean when you say that it "wouldn't feel right" to accept a cremation fee for a dead child but the same rules apply.

Why should Doctors feel guilty about charging/accepting professional fees?

Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:45:00 AM  
Blogger Rohin said...

"Why should Doctors feel guilty about charging/accepting professional fees?"

You're right, why should we? But I think most of us do, even if it's just a little and it doesn't stop us accepting the fee. I suppose it's something to do with the fiduciary relationship we have with patients. It's the same reason we are not (meant to be) swayed by Big Pharma etc, money should not enter into the equation. But increasingly that is a naive and idealistic view.

Irrespective of how one feels about a patient when they are alive, the relationship changes when they die. It becomes a legal responsibility and no longer one of providing care. That's my personal belief.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:53:00 AM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

I tire of the pretence that there is forensic accuracy in death certificates and even more so in crem forms. It bollocks. This sort of certification is best guess stuff, occasional Booker prize.

I did this here;

http://nhsblogdoc.blogspot.com/2005/12/death-certificates.html

All we do with crem forms is IDENTIFY the body, confirm death, and repeat the "best guess" on the death certificate.

If people want real forensic accuracy, then we will have to have universal post mortems - and even then sometimes the pathologist cannot be sure of the real cause of death. "myocardial degeneration" "ischaemic heart disease"..... of course it was!!!!

John

Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:55:00 AM  
Anonymous E said...

Anonymous @ 09:23 hrs said...

"Why should doctors be paid an extra bung for performing their duties for which they have already been paid once?"

"Doctors get paid for work shock!"

Should that not be “Doctors get paid TWICE for same work shock?”

I don't get paid any extra for writing a report to support a patient’s DLA or housing application why should you? And how long does this form take to fill in anyway 5 mins, 10 mins at £71 each a go that’s the equivalent of over £800/ hr. not a bad hourly rate, must be even more than those greedy GP’s are on these days . ;-)

Sunday, April 20, 2008 12:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

matt said:

"Cremation certificates are not about death confirmation primarily. What they are about is the destruction of evidence. Buried bodies can be exhumed. Cremated bodies are gone forever."

Well that didn't work in the Shipman case did it? GPs at the nearby practice continued to sign certificates and pocket the cash despite the evidence that something was amiss. Just shows how greedy GPs can be.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 12:12:00 PM  
Anonymous Matt said...

"I don't get paid any extra for writing a report to support a patient’s DLA or housing application why should you?"

That depends on what your job is and whether writing such reports is specified as part of your job description.

"Doctors get paid TWICE for same work shock?"

It's not the same work.

"GPs at the nearby practice continued to sign certificates and pocket the cash despite the evidence that something was amiss. Just shows how greedy GPs can be."

Are you seriously suggesting that the GP's involved were complicit in Shipman's actions? Shipman got away with it because nowone believed it could happen. Even the Police, when they looked into it first, (after being tipped off by a GP), didn't believe it.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 12:51:00 PM  
Blogger Prisoner of Hope said...

I came across the term Ash Cash at the time that Harold Shipman was working as a junior doctor at Pontefracr General Infiermary aa I wanted to undertake a review of the figures correlated to staff rotas but was told this was not something that hospital administrators did and to get back to counting the petty cash. I write about it one of my blogs along with some reflections on hospital mortality monitoring, which you might (perhaps) find of some interest) http://prisonerofhopeatquietknoll.blogspot.com/2008/03/so-how-many-times-can-you-die.html

Sunday, April 20, 2008 12:57:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Well that didn't work in the Shipman case did it? GPs at the nearby practice continued to sign certificates and pocket the cash despite the evidence that something was amiss. Just shows how greedy GPs can be."

And they can tell there is something amiss by looking at a dead body? Its not a post mortum you know.

The whole reason for the make up of the crem form as far as i am concerned is a check and balance. A cremated body cannot be re-examined. Hence the have two people individually look at the case and check on the cause of death.

HouseOfficers will be used to the obligatory phonecall froma registrar or consultant asking them about the crem form they have just filled out (although it always seems to be orthopedic regs....)
Similary if the hospital pathologist - or indeed the non-medical staff in the bereavement office disagree then they can get it looked at in more detail.


And then on to Ash Cash. Rohin is a tool. Pure and simple. Every junior doctor knows about it. Every juniour doctor talks about it. But to put such an offensive stance on a public blog. How dense is that?

Fact is that death certs are a legal requirement. True. CREMATION CERTIFICATES ARE NOT!!!!!!!!!
The crematorium are contracting the services of doctors to fill out their paperwork and to garauntee (under risk of lawsuit) that the deceased has no pacemaker or contact with radioactive implants. (brachytherapy etc)

Now for the medical students here - wise up. Yes, you'll get extra cash - i know some who have made 3 grand in one rotation. But you have to work hard for that money. Alot of the people i know who did geriatrics used to have to go to work and hour and a half early a couple days a week to do these certificates.

I'll finish with one point that hasn't been made. This year (thank god) the system changed so that the cheques are made out by the cremation provider, not the family. About time! Because it is reallllly creepy/ghoulish to have a cheque made out by the widow/er of the relative you looked after for the past week (unsucessfully).

James

Sunday, April 20, 2008 1:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The example of not charging for doing cremation forms on children is interesting. I think you should.

I agree. Should an undertaker undertake the funeral of a child at cost without taking any profit?

Several years ago I did a Court of Protection certification on a patient. This attracts a hefty fee. Unfortunately said patient died within days of my examination. His solicitor rang me and asked if I would waive my fee as his client had died. I said that I would waive mine if he would waive his.

I got my fee!

Crippo, I fully understand what you mean when you say that it "wouldn't feel right" to accept a cremation fee for a dead child but the same rules apply.

Why should Doctors feel guilty about charging/accepting professional fees?"

Actually funny you should bring this up because most crematoriums/funeral homes whilst charging for the cremation/burial of a child will not charge for the cost of the coffin.

AS regards to the doctors fee...well nowadays that is paid direct by the crem homes. I'm not sure if i would trust them to pass on my fee to the family. I think i would simply donate it to charity. At the moment I donate about 1 in 4 of my cheques to charity, and I feel that is charitable enough.

After all, whats next, asking paramedics and firemen to waive their wages for time spent at a scene where all the people die?

Sunday, April 20, 2008 1:16:00 PM  
Anonymous E said...

Matt,

""Doctors get paid TWICE for same work shock?"

It's not the same work. "

are you suggesting that hospital Doctors are not drawing their usual salary during the half our or so it takes them to walk down to the morgue and sign a release form or that they come in on their days off or when not on duty to complete the paper work? If so then join the gang I often have to work outside my usual working hours to complete paperwork and I don’t get paid extra for it. (As neither I suspect do you).

If Doctors are completing this piece of paperwork during work time then they are already being paid once for their time. If they then claim a second fee for doing what they have already been paid to do then they are being paid twice, or do you expect to be paid a second time for writing out an x ray or a pathology from as well?

BTW I am a psychiatric nurse but no one else I know apart from Doctors can get to charge a fat fee for writing court or Coroners reports (Do Doctors charge for writing coroners’ reports, I am not sure probably you appear to charge for everytrhing else?) The rest of us have to do it for free.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 1:30:00 PM  
Blogger Rohin said...

"Rohin is a tool"

Whilst I can't deny this, kindly shut the f*ck up. If, as I have politely requested on more than one occasion, you read the context the quote was taken from, it would make more sense. I made it as blasé and as tasteless as possible to bring my experiences with a daughter who had lost her young mother into perspective.

Irrespective, in this day of 'public blogs', why should we cower and hide our views? Doctors aren't the god-like figures we were once revered as, we're normal people. Why continue the mentality that we must protect the feeble-minded public from the realities of our lives? My non-medical friends hear about my experiences and have no trouble accepting events I depict.

The public is more than capable of accepting that a) death costs money b) junior doctors need money c) junior doctors are normal people who spend their money on normal things, like booze.

I didn't say anything more controversial than that, James. And by the way, I've never received a cheque from a family - it has always been from the undertakers. And: post-mortEm, orthopAedic, It's, unsuCcessfully etc etc

Sunday, April 20, 2008 1:39:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

James,
most of us students are wise enough thank you.

How should i "wise up"?

Maybe by realising that the family don't give the cheques to the doctor? (as far as i was aware they never did).

You sound a bit more tool-like than rohin, maybe you could be as eloquent as him and sound less so.

e, does your job description say you have to do this as part of your job?
You complain because you don't get paid for it or because you think we should do it for free?.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 2:15:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

matt said:
"Are you seriously suggesting that the GP's involved were complicit in Shipman's actions? Shipman got away with it because nowone believed it could happen. Even the Police, when they looked into it first, (after being tipped off by a GP), didn't believe it."

Sorry to spoil things for you, matt, but it wasn't a GP who tipped off the Police, it was the local undertaker!

Another thing, if you are ever unfortunate to need rescuscitating after a road accident, make sure you are attended to by an off-duty paramedic rather than an off-duty member of the BMA. The former will probably do it for free out of the kindness of his heart as a fellow human being, the latter will invariably send a bill to you via your insurance company!

Sunday, April 20, 2008 2:49:00 PM  
Anonymous E said...

I have never been asked to write a court report but have been requested to provide a report for a Coroner. I don't know if it is in my job description to do this or not, I was under the impression that if requested by a Coroner then I was compelled to do as requested without payment.

As for supporting a patients application for DLA or housing then this only requires a paragraph or two and I would consider it part of my job for which I am already adequately remunerated. I think Doctors ought to the same unless the task they are being asked to perform is particularly onerous or falls well outside their regular duties.

Do Psychiatrists charge MH Tribunals for providing them with medical reports? I didn’t when I had to write a lengthy and very involved social circumstances report for one client, I just got on with it.

Ash Cash “known as the house officer’s privilege”, the best thing to with a privilege is to keep quiet about it unless someone finds out (like on call rooms) and either takes it away or taxes it. I didn’t realise that the cheque used to be made out by the family directly, how tasteless is that. I also am not sure how I feel that my mother’s already expensive funeral several years ago enriched two junior house officers to the tune of £71 each.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 2:51:00 PM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

Is it any bloody wonder we (doctors I mean) get really pissed of with a certain sort or nurse?

What do I meant by that?

I only have to write an article saying that hospital doctors have tomato ketchup on their chips and some bloody paranoid nurse comes in with a coment like this:

"It's not the same work. "are you suggesting that hospital Doctors are not drawing their usual salary during the half our or so it takes them to walk down to the morgue and sign a release form or that they come in on their days off or when not on duty to complete the paper work? If so then join the gang I often have to work outside my usual working hours to complete paperwork and I don’t get paid extra for it. (As neither I suspect do you). If Doctors are completing this piece of paperwork during work time then they are already being paid once for their time. If they then claim a second fee for doing what they have already been paid to do then they are being paid twice, or do you expect to be paid a second time for writing out an x ray or a pathology from as well?BTW I am a psychiatric nurse but no one else I know apart from Doctors can get to charge a fat fee for writing court or Coroners reports (Do Doctors charge for writing coroners’ reports, I am not sure probably you appear to charge for everytrhing else?) The rest of us have to do it for free."

E, you just don't get it, do you? You are tied up in your little paranoid world of "I am as good as a doctor" and so I should earn as much as them. Ya Boo Sucks.

Pathetic



John

Sunday, April 20, 2008 3:02:00 PM  
Blogger missbliss said...

Money and death: both very emotive issues. The term "ash cash" doesn't sit well with me, which is why we don't use the phrase at home.

What surprises me is that a lot of the objections to the process stem from an attitude that says "you're getting MY money, and you don't deserve it" rather than, "that's a bit of a dodgy joke, eh?" As has been said before, this fiscal reticence would not have been the same if it was over, say, solicitor's fees.

This aggravation between the public and the health profession, and even within the profession itself, is bound to cause big problems in the future as people grow begrudging, distrusting and even jealous of others.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 3:17:00 PM  
Anonymous E said...

Paranoia: a disturbed thought process characterized by excessive anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs concerning a perceived threat.

Did I say I was as good as a Doctor? – No.
Did I say I should get paid as much as a Doctor? – No.

The question is should anyone Doctor, nurse or social worker expect to receive a second fee for performing a task that most people would imagine falls within their job description and for which time they have already been paid?

The only one sounding a little paranoid around here is you Dr C. Have you taken your meds today? ;-)

Sunday, April 20, 2008 3:23:00 PM  
Anonymous fox in sox said...

I remember being a houseman in Geriatrics in the late 80's, on a 1:2.

I did a couple of Crem forms a week, about 40 Quid each at the time.

Dark Humour is one way of staying sane in the face of extreme experiences, common to Drs, military, police etc.

Hence, Ash Cash, but it did take some time, and always the risk of a legal situation.

Crem forms are part of the finances of death and bereavement. The Solicitor isn't free, neither is the house clearance, funeral or vicar at the funeral. Get buried? then pay the gravedigger. Even the boatman on the river Styx gets paid. The biggest cut however tends to go to Mr Brown.There are many costs to death.

I am planning to be be buried for free after my body is dissected at the Royal College of Surgeons. There is a shortage of bodies for dissection, and anatomy teaching is not as good as it used to be. I feel that I should not expect others to be dissected if I am unwilling myself.

The money saved will be spent on a booze up for the bereaved relatives to remember me by...Like an Irish wake, only without a body.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 3:31:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Immaturity strikes again!

As for the FLK in a childs notes - I think you should review whether this is correct now?

Parents can and do read their childrens notes and so I suppose you would be happy for this to be there if it is your grandchild assuming of course they exist? !

Sunday, April 20, 2008 3:34:00 PM  
Anonymous Matt said...

"Sorry to spoil things for you, matt, but it wasn't a GP who tipped off the Police, it was the local undertaker!"

Shipman was reported to the Police 6 months before he was arrested by a local GP. The Police didn't persue the matter and Shipman managed to kill 3 other patients before his arrest. This is however a minor point.

I was responding to Anonymous @ 12:12:00 who posted an outrageous slur i.e. "GPs at the nearby practice continued to sign certificates and pocket the cash despite the evidence that something was amiss. Just shows how greedy GPs can be."

No wonder he (you?) wants to remain anonymous as this may very well be libelous.

"Another thing, if you are ever unfortunate to need rescuscitating after a road accident, make sure you are attended to by an off-duty paramedic rather than an off-duty member of the BMA. The former will probably do it for free out of the kindness of his heart as a fellow human being, the latter will invariably send a bill to you via your insurance company!"

Another gratuitous and offensive remark. I'd rather it was the Paramedic anyway as he/she would be better able, on average to deal with an emergency situation like this than most doctors.

Anyway, what's stopping the Paramedic from billing the insurance company?

Sunday, April 20, 2008 4:41:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You have missed 2 important points about this issue (unless it has been mentioned in the comments already).

1. Doctors don't directly bill the patient's relatives for cremation fees. The undertaker charges this as part of their bill. The fee is passed on to the doctor by the undertaker.

2. If the deceased had a pacemaker or a radioactive implant inserted then the doctor signing the cremation form has to remove it (it would otherwise explode in the oven). That in it self is worth the fee even though I only ever had to do it once.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 4:46:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

re Dr Shipman, tipoff -

I think it was a humble taxi driver that gave the tip to the police !

So much for the crem forms

Tip-Off

Mr Shaw eventually contacted police in August 1998 with concerns over the deaths of 21 people who had been patients of Shipman. He was interviewed two days later.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-12806650,00.html

Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:05:00 PM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

As for the FLK in a childs notes - I think you should review whether this is correct now? Parents can and do read their childrens notes and so I suppose you would be happy for this to be there if it is your grandchild assuming of course they exist? !

++++++++

Not quite that old yet. No grandchildren. 4 teenagers though. Well, I hope no grandchildren - none that I know of at any rate!



John

Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would get over it as long as it had WHM (with hot mother) on the form :)

Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:57:00 PM  
Anonymous Jane_T said...

Dr C said:

"E, you just don't get it, do you? You are tied up in your little paranoid world of "I am as good as a doctor" and so I should earn as much as them. Ya Boo Sucks.

Pathetic"


Where the hell did that come from!!! I think paranoia is right!

Do doctors fill out the forms whilst they are being paid by the NHS/hospital?

Anonymous said:

"As for the FLK in a childs notes - I think you should review whether this is correct now? Parents can and do read their childrens notes...

If that's all they put then I wouldn't worry, it seems quite mild. It's certainly nothing compared to the doctor who told me to flush my miscarried baby down the toilet.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 6:09:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Man alive! Can I restate and expand on what I posted at 0815 this morning and that which others have said?

The crem form is non-NHS work paid for by the undertaker to shift the responsibility to the junior doctor for:

a) cremating someone when it's dangerous to do so (pacemakers etc);
b) cremating someone whose cause of death is later called into question when unfortunately the evidence has been destroyed.

It was fifty quid in my day, but it seems to be seventy now. It may seem like a lot to some, but it would be small beer in the face of a lawsuit or potentially being hauled in front of the GMC.

The legal document (Medical Certificate of the Cause of Death or MCCD) in practice is completed at the same time as the crem form during work hours. The family are usually due to come in to the hospital the same day to complete the paperwork and take the MCCD to the Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages. Failing to do the MCCD and crem form in a timely manner causes unnecessary inconvenience to the family of the deceased at a stressful time. I don't think the NHS begrudges junior doctors the five minutes to complete the form, plus ten minutes or so to view the body.

It makes me (a junior hospital doctor with three years' experience starting GP training in August) pretty depressed reading all these comments. I'm very sorry some people seem to despise doctors and begrudge us our salary. I'm just trying to do a good job in trying circumstances. Surely all the other healthcare staff posting here can identify with that?

Sunday, April 20, 2008 7:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Jane_T said...

Anonymous 7.47pm

Sorry if I came across as despising doctors and begrudging the their salary, that wasn't my intention. Admittedly I do despise some doctors but not doctors as a group, some are obviously very good at their jobs. I just queried the time taken to complete the form in case it took a long time. Obviously 15 minutes is not important, though it makes the form filling expensive at £284 per hour! Who negotiated that rate? Maybe the nurses should employ them ready for their next pay 'rise'.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 8:32:00 PM  
Anonymous RichieJames said...

Part of the fee paid is to ensure that this doesn't happen:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1279940

for which the doctor, by signing the form & certifying the absence, take responsibility.

In another shock development (coming to a BBC 'news' website near you soon), apparently there are policemen who work for homicide squads who actually profit from the violent deaths of people, some of whom are children. And they use this money to buy things like cars & houses & even to go on holiday. And don't even get me started on forensic pathologists. Some of them use this money, apparently, to buy alcohol.
Does anyone have a 'phone number for the Daily Mail?

Sunday, April 20, 2008 8:35:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ash cash is just one of the fees that GPs are allowed to charge their patients/relatives. The BMA issues guidelines about payments for us in primary care, and fees such as ash cash, insurance medicals, some immunisations, signing a passport or a form to join a gym all rake in a few more quid into the GP partnership coffers. A few years ago I saw the money divided between the partners as cash every friday night. I thought the practice very unscrupulous but feared for my employment had I whistleblown.
Ex Practice Nurse

Sunday, April 20, 2008 8:37:00 PM  
Blogger Michael Anderson said...

Reading some of the comments on here saddens me, it seems that some people take delight in having a pop at doctors at every given opportunity.

Cremation forms should be filled in at the earliest opportunity to avoid any delays in releasing the body to the funeral home which would cause the family extra stress at this already traumatic time.

I'd estimate that it takes about 20-30 mins to get to the bereavement office, fill out the 2-page cremation certificate, go to the mortuary, see the body and get back to the ward again.

In reality it means giving up your lunch break, coming in to work early or delaying other duties so you finish later than normal. Why people think we should do this for free?

As described, filling in the forms isn't part of our NHS duties. If we don't claim our fee, the funeral home keeps the money. Really, I don't understand why some people have such a big problem with it.

- Michael

Sunday, April 20, 2008 9:50:00 PM  
Anonymous Jane_T said...

RichieJames said...

"Part of the fee paid is to ensure that this doesn't happen:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1279940

for which the doctor, by signing the form & certifying the absence, take responsibility."


and I also found this:

http://student.bmj.com/issues/06/02/education/60.php

"Completing cremation forms
Doctors often complete cremation forms inaccurately, with errors ranging from incorrect name, address, or age of the patient to the doctor having never seen the patient.4 One study showed that fewer than half of the forms were completed with enough accuracy to allow cremation to proceed. Junior doctors were responsible for the most errors.5 These avoidable errors cause delays for the family and increase their stress at an already difficult time."

So £142 is paid in total for the inspection of a body and the completion of two forms but less than half of these forms (that only take a few minutes to complete according to doctors here) are accurate and nearly half of the crematoria staff surveyed had experience of pacemakers exploding during cremation. We trust our lives to people that who are incapable of correctly completing a form? Unbelievable!

Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:43:00 PM  
Anonymous Crippo said...

'Another thing, if you are ever unfortunate to need rescuscitating after a road accident, make sure you are attended to by an off-duty paramedic rather than an off-duty member of the BMA. The former will probably do it for free out of the kindness of his heart as a fellow human being, the latter will invariably send a bill to you via your insurance company!'


Anonymous, how do I put this?


Fuck off.


'As for the FLK in a childs notes - I think you should review whether this is correct now?'

Perhaps we now use something more politically correct. However, FLK is actually a diagnosis. What it means is that we have been referred a rather odd looking child, and despite all out best efforts can find nothing wrong. Child is actualy normal. However still looks a bit wierd, so we need to tell colleagues who do not know the kid 'yes, he looks a bit strange, but that's just him/her, we know, we've looked!'

AS far as charging for crem. forms for children, all I know is that in our hospital we never have. We are prefectly entitled to do so, but don't. Just one of those local things, I suppose.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:45:00 PM  
Anonymous Crippo said...

Jane-t, the reference quoted is from 1998, I suspect the data were earlier than that. The system has been tightened up considerably since then.

Incidentally as far as I am aware the BMA approached the government at least 20 years ago asking that the system be reviewed as it was not 'fit for purpose' HMG was not interested.

Plus ca change etc. etc.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:49:00 PM  
Anonymous mens sana said...

I have to say I find the comments here amazing (though on reflection, perhaps not surprising)

The cremation form is a legal document for completion of which a fee is paid. Full stop

Ditto the DS1500 form

There that wasn't too difficult, was it.

Sunday, April 20, 2008 11:53:00 PM  
Anonymous Jane_T said...

Crippo said:

"Jane-t, the reference quoted is from 1998, I suspect the data were earlier than that. The system has been tightened up considerably since then.

Well hopefully so or there would be little point in carrying out research in the first place. Presumably though, most of the doctors who were incapable of completing a form 10 years ago are still practising? Our life is still in their hands, LOL.

Monday, April 21, 2008 1:29:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"
Sorry if I came across as despising doctors and begrudging the their salary, that wasn't my intention. Admittedly I do despise some doctors but not doctors as a group, some are obviously very good at their jobs. I just queried the time taken to complete the form in case it took a long time. Obviously 15 minutes is not important, though it makes the form filling expensive at £284 per hour! Who negotiated that rate? Maybe the nurses should employ them ready for their next pay 'rise'."


As far as I'm aware nurses have been awarded an 8% pay increase whilst F1s have had a 20% pay cut.

Monday, April 21, 2008 1:43:00 AM  
Anonymous Jane_T said...

Anonymous, You're obviously not keeping up with the blog, http://nhsblogdoc.blogspot.com/2008/04/three-year-pay-cut-for-nurses.html

Not sure what F1s are but maybe they should get in first and employ the negotiator?

Monday, April 21, 2008 4:05:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The tosser who is going to bury his relatives who want cremating will change his mind when he finds out the difference in price, even with the ash cash.

Ash cash is a statutory fee. If you don't like it lobby the government to outlaw it. It's a sick pervert who will go against his relatives wishes after their death. Shocking.

Monday, April 21, 2008 4:15:00 AM  
Anonymous Dr.JaneDoe said...

Holy Mary mother of God, jane t, you are critical. Have you ever filled out a crem form? they have some damn stupid questions on the ones here in NZ anyway. They can be very difficult and subjective to answer, they are not just reiterating what's on the death cert. Thankfully we have a wonderful Mortality Co-ordinator whose sole job is to eagle eye things like this and pull up any areas that need correcting.
Bottom line-I was taught MEDICINE in med school. You know, Anatomy, Physiology, Pharmacology, stuff like that? Not how to fill in reasonably tricky legal documents, which really ISN'T part of my job as a junior hospital doctor. You snide comments "Oh, they can't even fill in forms, but they look after people's lives", etc, is offensive and silly. I can respond to a cardiac arrest call and resuscitate someone appropriately-however, like any HUMAN occasionally when I'm under pressure and things aren't well worded, I make mistakes filling out forms. It happens. It's amazing what people choose to belittle doctors over these days-once in my intern year we had a crazy landlady. She came into the house with her own key, nosed around in our rooms, and then came into the sitting room and said to me "What kind of doctor are you? you don't even sweep under the bed!"
Occasionally, when under stress or pressure, a few of us have noticed we tend to fill in our own names or dates of birth on blood samples etc. before we catch ourselves. For whatever reason. I suppose those are the details you fill out automatically on most forms in your life, and when on stress autopilot, they are the ones your hands begin to write. Interesting. I would hate to find myself doing that on a crem form though....creepy

Monday, April 21, 2008 6:10:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gosh.

Doctors certainly have lost some of their reputation in the eyes of some here haven't they?

Medicine (being a doctor) is a profession. I don't clock-in and clock-out like many who work at my Trust. I frequently come in early and my wife will testify to always coming in late. I stay until the job is done. I try to do my best.

Most patients and relatives and members of the public still think this, although I admit that the few who have made comments on this blog caused me to hesitate in writing that.

We are duty-bound to certify death. We are not paid extra to do this.

A cremation form is very different and is not directly charged to the family by a doctor, but rather, comes from the undertaker.

If I had a choice, I wouldn't have done them (I don't really do them anymore). However, when I was a PRHO, if I hadn't agreed to do that (as additional private work over and above those contracted by my Trust) then it would cause huge delay and unnecessary stress to a bereaved family.

Monday, April 21, 2008 7:46:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jane-t - yes the crem forms can sometimes be easy. I did an easy one last week - a lady with no other medical problems came in with a leaking AAA and died. Easy.
It took circa 15 minutes (10mins to fill out the forms which involves some duplication and in which you cannot abreviate, 5 minutes to go to the morgue and check the body).
This compares with the chap who I spent an hour and a bit doing a couple of weeks ago because he was more complex and require a post mortum in the end.
And my regular duties?
I had to stay 3 hours late getting them all done.


"Doctors aren't the god-like figures we were once revered as, we're normal people. Why continue the mentality that we must protect the feeble-minded public from the realities of our lives?"

See what I was talking about was sensitivity. About a day gone by when people acted like ambassadors of their profession. As opposed to saying 'treat me and my profession like crap and that's what you'll get'
I aspire to be a more than that frankly.

james

Monday, April 21, 2008 7:56:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anonymous(AKA toss-pot)said:

"The tosser who is going to bury his relatives who want cremating will change his mind when he finds out the difference in price, even with the ash cash.

Ash cash is a statutory fee. If you don't like it lobby the government to outlaw it. It's a sick pervert who will go against his relatives wishes after their death. Shocking."

It's not a question of price, it's one of principle. I'd rather pay for a decent burial than to pay someone for doing very little work for easy money. Thank God some of Shipman's patients relatives opted to have them buried, otherwise the bastard would still be killing people.

Monday, April 21, 2008 9:00:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks for reminding us all that you, and all doctors/nurses/ managers etc are human, have feelings and respect for those you care for. We say youth is wasted on the younug, but I wouldn't want to go back.. L

Monday, April 21, 2008 9:43:00 AM  
Anonymous NI GP said...

A thought provoking, sensitivepost followed by a very depressing playground quality bout of pointless immature bickering

Monday, April 21, 2008 11:02:00 AM  
Anonymous scarecrow medical student said...

Sweet christ, what a cacophony of point-missing.

Doc C's post was about how he, and junior doctors deal with death. "Ash Cash", "celestial transfers" "TFBUNDY" etc. How many comments have replied about this? About three.

Fucking hell.

Doctor Crippen and the Rhino tried to make an important point about how doctors (and nurses) cope - and let's bear in mind that doctors have a suicide rate which is 40% over the average for men, and a staggering 120% above the average for women. One would hope for a discussion about how best to cope in a job that forces you to confront your own mortality every day, but this has turned, as it always does, into a ill informed, vitriolic debate about how doctors are either lazy/incompetent/greedy/murderous (delete as applicable).

Absolutely pathetic. Let me pose a question. Doctors and nurses have some of the highest suicide rates of any profession. Any ideas about how we get the numbers down?

Quite frankly, I couldn't give a toss about "Ash Cash", about whether or not doctors deserve it, and I haven't the faintest idea about how I'd deal with it.

What I want to know is how I can avoid being 40% more likely to kill myself than my friends when I qualify?

(figures from NEJM, 2005)

Monday, April 21, 2008 11:06:00 AM  
Anonymous richie said...

Jane_T "We trust our lives to people that who are incapable of correctly completing a form? Unbelievable!"

As an ICU consultant I fail to find any correlation between form filling & my capability to manage complex multi-organ failure in high-risk patients whilst simultaneously communicating with a large number of family to walk the best path between their wishes, those of their critically ill relatives, and that which is medically indicated. As you appear to claim some expertise in this matter, I would appreciate your thoughts as to this apparent correlation. Alternatively you could just continue to make bitchy irrelevant comments. Like I'm doing now.
Thanks.

Monday, April 21, 2008 12:10:00 PM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

scarecrow medical student said...
Sweet christ, what a cacophony of point-missing.

Doc C's post was about how he, and junior doctors deal with death. "Ash Cash", "celestial transfers" "TFBUNDY" etc. How many comments have replied about this? About three.

Fucking hell.

Doctor Crippen and the Rhino tried to make an important point about how doctors (and nurses) cope - and let's bear in mind that doctors have a suicide rate which is 40% over the average for men, and a staggering 120% above the average for women. One would hope for a discussion about how best to cope in a job that forces you to confront your own mortality every day, but this has turned, as it always does, into a ill informed, vitriolic debate about how doctors are either lazy/incompetent/greedy/murderous (delete as applicable).

Absolutely pathetic. Let me pose a question. Doctors and nurses have some of the highest suicide rates of any profession. Any ideas about how we get the numbers down?

Quite frankly, I couldn't give a toss about "Ash Cash", about whether or not doctors deserve it, and I haven't the faintest idea about how I'd deal with it.

What I want to know is how I can avoid being 40% more likely to kill myself than my friends when I qualify?

(figures from NEJM, 2005)

Monday, April 21, 2008 11:06:00 AM

+++++

Excellent comment. I could not agree more. This post was not a superficial moan about trivial medical fees - and the fee paid for cremation forms is trivial considering the medico-legal responsibility you take, and also the stress involved.

Sadly, we have got to the stage now that, as I said above, if I write a post saying that hospital doctors do not have enough tomato ketchup, hoardes of paranoid nurses appear to say "well, we don't have much ketchup either and we are just as good as doctors and so should get the same...."

It is depressing. It is indicative of the anger within the medical profession about dumbing down, and indicative of the professional paranoia of a unrepresentative but vociferous group of nurses.

I don't know why I bother sometimes



John

Monday, April 21, 2008 12:39:00 PM  
Anonymous Jane_T said...

In my defence I'm probably a little more anti-doctor than usual at the moment. It's only a week since I was told to flush my 12 week old foetus/baby down the toilet by a doctor (this is what he asked me to flush down the toilet along with the turds, http://www.firstscience.com/home/images/legacygallery/life_12weeks.jpg).

He had obviously failed to read NHS guidelines on the “sensitive handling of all human tissue” and that disposal of foetal remains should be “sensitive and respectful”, much in the same way as the doctors in the study on completing forms for ash cash failed to read instructions correctly, leading to "avoidable errors (that) cause delays for the family and increase their stress at an already difficult time."

The midwives were little better with no sympathy and no information about what to expect during or after the miscarriage. They had obviously failed to read the guidelines too. I had no idea that it would be more like normal labour (complete with 7 hours of contractions starting at 10 minute intervals and ending at 2 minute intervals and waters breaking) than the heavy period I experienced in a previous miscarriage at 8 weeks. The only person who showed any sympathy and understanding was the nurse from NHS Direct. I've not had a lot of time for NHS Direct before but at least she was human.

The out-of-hours service has gone downhill since my first miscarriage (as mentioned by Dr C elsewhere). Then, the GP came out, checked I was OK and took the remains away. This time nobody has been near.

The obvious disrespect on the linked article about ash cash struck a chord I suppose. I don't particularly find the idea of the money being called ash cash upsetting. If anything it's quite funny, but joking about it on a public web site where the recently bereaved are likely to see it is not “sensitive and respectful”. It's possible that relatives may even find this page whilst trying to make a decision about cremation or burial. How do you think they will feel?

I think I probably picked up on the money/form filling aspect rather than the disrespect in an attempt to avoid a post like this, but there you go, maybe I needed the outlet. Sorry; especially to the good, conscientious, careful, sensitive doctors who I know are out there somewhere.

I've just read your last reply, John. I'm not a medical professional as I'm sure you have already worked out. Maybe some of the 'bad feeling' is earned by your fellow professionals?

Monday, April 21, 2008 12:56:00 PM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

Jesus, Jane, what ever bickering is going on her, that is AWFUL. AWFUL.

Do you feel up to doing 600 words on it?


John

nhsblogdoc@gmail.com

Monday, April 21, 2008 12:59:00 PM  
Blogger NHSPenPusher said...

"As far as I'm aware nurses have been awarded an 8% pay increase"

Oh FFS...!

8% over 3 years - that's significantly less than inflation. A pay CUT.

Monday, April 21, 2008 1:06:00 PM  
Blogger jayann said...

Horrible, jane_t, and indefensible.

Monday, April 21, 2008 1:48:00 PM  
Blogger Fat Lazy Male Nurse said...

The hospital I used to work in had a central fund in the doctor's mess. All the ash cash, police statement money and any donations went into the kitty. This was then used to buy grog for the mess parties, to which everyone was invited. This seemed fair and equitable. I personally have no problem with Drs keeping the money they earn for report writing. In my curent field of work I use my bash cash for my summer holiday beer fund.
I love the hot summer nights when the sap rises, tempers fray, the locals fornicate and fight and the assault rate goes through the roof.

Monday, April 21, 2008 2:45:00 PM  
Anonymous Crippo said...

jane_t, my sympathies. Do write something for John if you can.

Sadly, there are good doctors and bad doctors, good midwives and bad midwives. The pity is that we only meet them when we are at our most vulnerable.

Monday, April 21, 2008 3:49:00 PM  
Blogger Rob Clark said...

Vicars get paid for taking weddings and funerals, at least my father-in-law does, and I know he would support the contention that it isn’t about the money so much as the principle: all professionals expect to get paid for their services – why should those in the caring/vocational professions be treated any differently?

Monday, April 21, 2008 3:57:00 PM  
Anonymous Fx said...

So sad for you jane_t - you are not alone.

Fx

Monday, April 21, 2008 6:04:00 PM  
Anonymous hughev said...

if you do not want to pay cremation fees then have the body buried. it will cost you even more, usually,than a cremation.

Monday, April 21, 2008 11:23:00 PM  
Anonymous E said...

“hoardes of paranoid nurses appear to say "well, we don't have much ketchup either and we are just as good as doctors and so should get the same...."

Oh yes hoards of them everywhere, I don’t think so

“The cremation form is a legal document for completion of which a fee is paid. Full stop”

You are duty-bound to certify death and are not paid extra to do that. You are also presumably paid for the 1/2 hour spent filling in the cremation form so where is the justification for expecting an extra fee for doing something that most people would expect lies within your job description anyway.

Tuesday, April 22, 2008 5:50:00 PM  
Anonymous Matt said...

"so where is the justification for expecting an extra fee for doing something that most people would expect lies within your job description anyway."

But most people are wrong! It does not lie within our job description.

Which part of that do you not understand?

Tuesday, April 22, 2008 9:11:00 PM  
Anonymous E said...

“Most people are wrong!”

Spoken like the arrogant bastard you undoubtedly are. No prizes for guessing your profession”. So why don’t you demand a fee for completing the death certificate or writing a pathology from or an x ray form as well. After all if you get to decide what is and what is not in your job description then the sky is the limit.

Which part of that do you not understand?

Tuesday, April 22, 2008 9:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Matt said...

"So why don’t you demand a fee for completing the death certificate or writing a pathology from or an x ray form as well."

Because it is part of my job description! I accepted that when I signed my contract.

You are a troll.

Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Fx said...

Actually, doctors do get paid a fee for writing reports outside their normal duties. For personal injury cases, for example, doctors get paid a fee for writing up a report on injuries sustained in an accident and the quality and quantity of consequent treatment.

Yeah, the cremation form is kinda creepy, but it's just a disbursement from the undertakers' fees, like a disbursement from lawyers' fees when you buy or sell a house.

Creepy, but justified.

The only reason it's creepy is that the form is about a dead person.

The tragedy, of course, is not the form, but the fact that 100% of people die eventually. Nothing doctors can do to stop that.

Fx

Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:45:00 PM  
Anonymous E said...

And you Matt, are a twat.
(hey and I am a poet, but I didn't know it!)

Wednesday, April 23, 2008 12:51:00 AM  
Anonymous E said...

“Our main story this week came to us via listener Pauline Levey. She emailed to suggest we take a look at 'ash cash'. This is a fee that's required in order for doctors to release a body for cremation. It's currently set at a level of £71 each for two doctors, paid in cash on top of the doctors' NHS salaries. Pauline - whose mother was cremated a year ago - says the charge is unfair and cruel. Here she explains why. (BBC)

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

So exactly how is questioning if Doctors should be collecting an extra bung for performing a duty while they are on duty and being paid their usual salary irrelevant or off topic?” Especially if they have to state that they have no pecuniary interest in the patients death, answer no apart from the £71 pounds I am about to pocket for filling in this form.

Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:05:00 AM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

You know, E, sometimes you really piss me of. I know you have a chip on your shoulder, but please do not accuse doctors of criminal deception. A "bung" is a slang term for an illicit, illegal under the table payment.

Not being a professional yourself, I don't expect you to understand how professions work.

I have not done a crem form this year; in fact I have not done one for a while. I checked the fee and you are right; it is £71.

I do crem forms in my free time. If I am driving to an undertakers I clearly cannot be looking after my patients. Remember I am self-employed. But I don't do the form for the money. The payment is trivial. It is not enough to buy decent bottle of wine and barely a third of the price of a ticket to Glyndebourne.

It's proles like you what cause unrest.


John

Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:21:00 AM  
Anonymous Dr.JaneDoe said...

e, if someone performs a task that they have not signed a contract saying they will do, and is not part of their normal daily job, then this task has to be remunerated. Otherwise people won't do it. Surprise surprise. Doctors don't work for free. We work for money like you and everyone else. Yes we deal with sickness and death-but if anything that means we should have a better salary, as these things are distressing and upsetting to deal with on a daily basis.
In addition, for all the commentors above who seem to have big beef with docs filling in crem forms during normal working hours and hence drawing a salary while doing it:
1) If we delay this task, it results in significant upset for the bereaved, as it can create a delay in releasing the body, funeral planning etc. These things are very hard to organise and plan when one is grieving, and all disruptions to the process must be minimised to avoid distress to the family.
2)If we do this work during our normal working hours, then the rest of our working day is that bit behind, especially if the form took a long time. So we play catch up, and often work late, or come in early. As we are salaried, that means we stay on late or come in early without additional remuneration. If you want to get REALLY REALLY petty about it-and I'm sure someone will-you could argue that the 71 quid is more than what we'd be paid for say, staying on an extra hour if we were actually paid for overtime anyway, but for Gawd's sake.
3) You are personally taking on the responsibility of destroying forensic evidence (apologies if calling a body forensic evidence upsets anyone-but it IS in a criminal investigation). You can get into lots of trouble for this. Additionally, there is the pacemaker issue.
In effect, you are taking time out of your normal working day, and disrupting it that bit extra, which you will have to make up for later, to come and take legal responsibility for some fairly serious stuff, and examine a cold cadaver fresh out of the freezer, which can be unpleasant. If this work shouldn't be paid, what the f*#k should????

Wednesday, April 23, 2008 6:01:00 AM  
Anonymous E said...

£71 for a decent bottle of wine fuck me how the other half live!

Bung=Drug company honararia =cash for ash=money for old rope

You can give it out Dr C but you are not always so keen on taking it. Come now, suck it up there’s a good Doctor.

Dr. Jane Doe, in my job description it says that I shall

“Undertake such duties at the direction of a senior member of staff that could be reasonably seen to fall within my field of responsibility”

Or words to that effect and I am sure it says something similar in your job description. May I humbly suggest that filling in a release form, especially when done in work time, is a duty that could be said to reasonably fall within the responsibility of a junior house officer? And why when I bring the matter of ash cash up with my medical colleagues do they look all awkward and start looking at the floor, guilty conscience?

Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:24:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I do crem forms in my free time. If I am driving to an undertakers I clearly cannot be looking after my patients. Remember I am self-employed. But I don't do the form for the money. The payment is trivial. It is not enough to buy decent bottle of wine and barely a third of the price of a ticket to Glyndebourne."

Hmmmm....sounds like Dr C is suffering from a serious case of "affluenza" if he's prepared to spend £71 (£42.60 after 40% tax)on a bottle of wine!

Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:32:00 AM  
Anonymous Matt said...

"if he's prepared to spend £71 (£42.60 after 40% tax)on a bottle of wine!"

What am I doing wrong here? How can I get tax relief on my wine purchases?

Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:30:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My point was that the gross £71 "ash cash" fee would buy a bottle costing £42.60 assuming that the doctor paid income tax at 40%.....but maybe the fee goes straight into his back poacket. Yet another case of the black economy .

Wednesday, April 23, 2008 5:36:00 PM  
Anonymous Dr.JaneDoe said...

E, what part of this don't you understand? It's NOT part of our contracted hospital work! Just because a lot of people who aren't familiar with the particulars of doctors' contracts think it sounds sort of like something that should be in our contract doesn't make it so!
I actually just took the time to dig up and look at my contract, and crem forms ain't part of it!
I'm not sure you understand the significance of this fully.

If it is not in our contract, then it is also not covered by the hospitals clinical indemnity scheme that covers medical mishaps by it's employees excluding legal defense costs in the event of a mistake. This means, in effect, that we are taking FULL personal and financial responsibility for any adverse consequences that arise as a result of our okaying the body for cremation, including but not limited to injury to third parties as a result of exploding devices within the body, destruction of forensic evidence, failure to adequately establish that the death may require further investigations etc etc. If we screw it up, then the hospital does not stand by us as it does not consider it part of our hospital contracted duties. We are then liable for all costs, both legal and subsequent litigation, and it is at the complete discretion of the MDU/MPS whether they will cover it or not, decided on a case by case basis. Is any of this getting through?

Actually, after looking at what I've just written I'm starting to have reservations about signing the damn things now. 71 quid-nice-but not worth the hassle it could potentially bring me, methinks.

Your "humble" suggestion that my employment terms and conditions should be based on what your idea of what my work should be is by far the most arrogant thing I've seen posted up here. How can you accuse others of being arrogant when you feel the freedom to dictate what their jobs should entail?

Bring up the subject of ash cash with me, and I assure you I will not be looking at the floor. I will be staring your arrogant ass down. No matter what anyone thinks I have worked hard for years and continue to work hard. And I am proud of what I do. And I am not embarrassed to charge for my professional services. Why should I look at the floor when someone brings up the subject of paying me for my work? I would rather look them in the eye and stand by my job and continue to do it with pride.

In short, Fuck you.

Thursday, April 24, 2008 6:59:00 AM  
Anonymous Matt said...

dr.janedoe

Bravo!

Thursday, April 24, 2008 8:39:00 AM  
Anonymous E said...

"then it is also not covered by the hospitals clinical indemnity scheme that covers medical mishaps by it's employees"

Not having you job description infront of me I don't know what it says but thank you for taking the time to explainin that to me.

Oh and FUCK YOU too dear

Thursday, April 24, 2008 9:18:00 AM  
Anonymous E said...

You blog docs do yourselves no favours

What a bunch of self pitying, over worked and underpaid whingers you lot you are. Ash Cash - Should not be paid in order to enable the basic human right of the grieving to recover their deceased loved one from the British health care system they have financially contributed to all of their lives.

Doc whingers - dont blame the undertakers, neither of you should have it as a point of principle. The signing off of the deceased should be the last NHS provided service the deceased pays for after what may be 50+ years of NI contributions. To suggest it is not a core part of the NHS cradle to grave service we all pay for is an utter deception. If you cant see that you need to get a grip on the reality of how people outside the NHS feel about this.

All you hard done by Docors, do you think the rest of us can make 71 quid in our tea breaks on top of our salaries? - Get a grip.

The comparison to lawyers fees made by some here is disingenuous. Lawyers perform duties and complete forms for which their employer (the law firm) invoices the client. However, the similarity ends there. Unlike junior doctors, a graduate lawyer does not directly receive fees for each form they fill out. Instead, as professionals, lawyers receive a salary that reflects their overall performance in all aspects of their job. If the NHS decrees that checking to ensure that there is no evidence of a suspicious cause of death or that a pacemaker is not a necessary part of their service, the hospital should charge this fee to the estate of the deceased through the hospital system in and open and transparent manner.

Either way, the current system whereby the transaction effectively takes place indirectly between individual doctors and the family of the deceased via the undertaker with the money is paid on the side is unsavoury to say the least. If it is necessary then the work should instead be incorporated into the prescribed workload of hospital doctors. The current ash for cash system financially favours junior doctors in hospitals with greater portions of palliative patients such as geriatric or oncology wards and in is unfair to those who work in dermatology or paediatric orthopaedics, for example. This system is also very messy as it means that this private work has to be performed within normal working hours and on NHS premises.

There are not many other salaried professionals who are allowed to do this at their place of employment without any effect on their base salary.

With thanks to the rationalhoss and 1forjustice who have managed to express my views better than I could ever have done

Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:14:00 AM  
Anonymous Matt said...

"With thanks to the rationalhoss and 1forjustice who have managed to express my views better than I could ever have done"

And I thank them for making their arguements without being spiteful, rude, insulting and for not making false accusations and ad-hominem attacks.

Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:46:00 AM  
Anonymous E said...

"And I thank them for making their arguements without being spiteful, rude, insulting and for not making false accusations and ad-hominem attacks."

Well you and your Doctor buddies would know all about that. Arse!

Thursday, April 24, 2008 1:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Matt said...

e, I suspect you are one of those people who always wins the arguement, not because you are right but because everyone else just gives up!

I know I've had enough.

Dr Crippen, may I be presumptious and declare this post closed (unless e wants the last word of course!)

Thursday, April 24, 2008 1:45:00 PM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

I must be getting obsessively anal even bothering to reply to the latest tirade from “E” but it makes me so angry that I have to demolish it

You blog docs do yourselves no favours What a bunch of self pitying, over worked and underpaid whingers you lot you are.
I really do not understand what makes you say that. I presume it is sarcasm. Junior hospital doctors in particular are over-worked and underpaid – disgracefully so.
Ash Cash - Should not be paid in order to enable the basic human right of the grieving to recover their deceased loved one from the British health care system they have financially contributed to all of their lives.
Extraordinary statements. This is the law of the land. It was not make by doctors. It is a safeguard to make sure that medico-legal evidence is not burnt.
Doc whingers - dont blame the undertakers, neither of you should have it as a point of principle.
Incomprehensible. What do you mean?
The signing off of the deceased should be the last NHS provided service the deceased pays for after what may be 50+ years of NI contributions. To suggest it is not a core part of the NHS cradle to grave service we all pay for is an utter deception.
You confuse death certification – which is a part of the job and for which there is no charge – with creamation forms, which are not a routine part of the job. They are a safety net, and they are a medico-legal check
If you cant see that you need to get a grip on the reality of how people outside the NHS feel about this. All you hard done by Docors, do you think the rest of us can make 71 quid in our tea breaks on top of our salaries? - Get a grip.
Yes, most people can make £71 for fees. They pay far more for lawyers, plumbers, decorators, builders, holidays, beer, wine etc etc. I think you are one of these odd people who does not understand that medical care is expensive; doctors’ time is expensive and has to be paid for
The comparison to lawyers fees made by some here is disingenuous. Lawyers perform duties and complete forms for which their employer (the law firm) invoices the client. However, the similarity ends there. Unlike junior doctors, a graduate lawyer does not directly receive fees for each form they fill out. Instead, as professionals, lawyers receive a salary that reflects their overall performance in all aspects of their job.
You don’t know how law firms work. Lawyers are perpetually on a timeclock, now computerised. Every minute of their time is billed, and lawyers who do not bill a certain number of hours lose their jobs.
If the NHS decrees that checking to ensure
Wrong again. It is nothing to do with the NHS. This is to do with the law of the land and the registrar, and the Cremation referee and is a legal process outside of and separate to the NHS
that there is no evidence of a suspicious cause of death or that a pacemaker is not a necessary part of their service, the hospital should charge this fee to the estate of the deceased through the hospital system in and open and transparent manner.
There is nothing that is not open and transparent about crem forms. It is probably less stressful for the family to have the undertaker coordinating it all
Either way, the current system whereby the transaction effectively takes place indirectly between individual doctors and the family of the deceased via the undertaker with the money is paid on the side is unsavoury to say the least.
It is not “paid on the side”. You are being offensive. There is nothing dishonest and unsavoury about it. It is what the lawyer would call a disbursement. The undertaker arranges it as he is responsible for organising the cremation and cannot do that unless the necessary certificates have been issued. So he takes responsibility for it
If it is necessary then the work should instead be incorporated into the prescribed workload of hospital doctors.
The current ash for cash system financially favours junior doctors in hospitals with greater portions of palliative patients such as geriatric or oncology wards
Certainly and obviously
and in is unfair to those who work in dermatology or paediatric orthopaedics, for example.
Now you are being silly. It is not unfair to those doctors. They do not have to do the work and so they do not get paid. And in a way, you are undermining your own argument by implying that doctors should be paid for the work but share it with their colleagues
This system is also very messy as it means that this private work has to be performed within normal working hours and on NHS premises.
Well, yes, it does have to be done during the working day. Most doctors will do it during their lunch break.

There are not many other salaried professionals who are allowed to do this at their place of employment without any effect on their base salary. With thanks to the rationalhoss and 1forjustice who have managed to express my views better than I could ever have done
I think you have expressed yourself all too clearly. What comes over most is your hatred of doctors and your resentment that they are higher earners than you. Shame. I know that in reality – from most of your comments - you are a nice guy, and obviously very caring - but as soon as you get the feeling that doctors are getting something that nurses are not getting, you go strangely berserk.

a great shame.




John

Thursday, April 24, 2008 3:34:00 PM  
Anonymous E said...

I do not hate doctors and I only go beserk as you put it when I am being insulted by arses like you.

And that I promise is the last I have to say on the matter

Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:08:00 PM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

I do not hate doctors and I only go beserk as you put it when I am being insulted by arses like you.

And that I promise is the last I have to say on the matter

Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:08:00 PM

+++++++++

Why am I an arse? In what way have I insulted you?


John

Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:49:00 PM  
Anonymous E said...

Do you really want to know or are you simply lining me up for another masterful display of your superior intellect because if you are I really can't be bothered, this is beginning to bore me and if I am getting bored with it it must be bad.

Thursday, April 24, 2008 6:22:00 PM  
Anonymous DundeeMedStudent said...

blimey folks really have been missing the point!

Anyhoo as of August I doubt much of the 'ash cash' will be seeing any pubs but instead going to pay for the accommodation foundation doctors are about to lose.

Thursday, April 24, 2008 7:53:00 PM  
Anonymous Anynurse said...

" I will be staring your arrogant ass down."

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ROFL Go ahead punk make my day. Oooh that be fightin talk. Sounds like Jane Doe has been watching way too many Dempsy and Makepeace videos

Monday, April 28, 2008 4:54:00 PM  
Anonymous Dr.JaneDoe said...

ah another bitter doctor hating nurse making bitchy comments for the sake of it. Yawn. Snore. Stretch. If I had a nickel for every one of these types I've seen on here....I'd have about three dollars, which won't get me very much. Maybe I should go and do a few more crem certs for some extra cash......

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 7:07:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

dr.janedoe said...
ah another bitter doctor hating nurse making bitchy comments for the sake of it

pots and kettles spring to mind Jane D, you and your colleagues appear able to give at least as good as you get on that front

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 8:50:00 PM  
Anonymous Dr.Jane Doe said...

"Spoken like the arrogant bastard you undoubtedly are. No prizes for guessing your profession”. So why don’t you demand a fee for completing the death certificate or writing a pathology from or an x ray form as well. After all if you get to decide what is and what is not in your job description then the sky is the limit."

It might be worth noting, anonymous dear, that the first stone was cast, as it usually is, by an aggressive nurse who thinks they know more than they know and presumes to dictate to us what our jobs should be and insults us most vociferously when we try to explain to her the reality of the situation and the fact that it is a medicolegal issue.
Therefore I would deem it fortunate that we can give at least as good as we get. If people cannot understand a reasonably simple explanation and continue with unprovoked hostility, then hostility from the other party will be the likely result. Doubtless though, you will just make another nasty comment about shithead doctors. I know it all too well. It's sad when people who are supposed to be on the same side end up like this. Yes I know insults were traded on both sides, but in this case an aggressive nurse with a poor background knowledge of the facts threw the first punch, and still you feel so enraged by the fact that we defended ourselves that you come on here and try to make humiliating cracks about our defense. I don't understand it really.

Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:01:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am a junior doctor and I hate having to fill in these forms. I will often be harrassed by the nursing staff to fill in the death certificate as they have told the deceased's family to come and collect it, showing little insight or interest in the fact that it is somtimes inappropriate to complete the certificate.

When this is explained they roll their eyes, mutter under their breath and cast weary glances at their nurse buddies who all know doctors are bone idle. Then they toddle off for their union sanctioned, seemingly sacrosanct (sp?) break.

Then I have to find the notes which the ward clerk has hidden and go to the mortuary where a dead eyed pion shuffles toward a freezer and pulls out the body of the poor patient. I fumble through the form and leave feeling numb and a bit of a failure for not being able to keep them out of that freezer.

Then I use the rest of my "lunch break" to run to the canteen and grab a sandwich, at which point I bump into the deceased's widow and extended family. They know me, have seen me on the ward, have spoken to me only the day or even the morning before. I don't know what they think because I daren't look at them. I imagine their accusatory stares.

Then my bleep goes off and I have to go back to the ward because the judgemental nurses who hate doctors and want to show it have a collection of random crap for me to wade through, most of which is either a)obvious or b)something the consultant couldn't figure out, and for which they expect a soltuion before their handover in ten minutes.

Then I go home and passively aggressively drive my girlfriend away so she never speaks to me again before drinking a few cans so I can forget the horrible process.

And for this I get a cheque for £71 several months later, which I feel ashamed to cash at the bank.

And after reading some of the comments made here, it seems rightly so.

Any budding doctors beware- the public, the press and your non-doctor colleagues resent every penny you earn.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 1:43:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some of the comments on here beggar belief. I'm an IT Consultant (the techie kind) in the City. Damn straight, I charge for my professional services.

If I am asked to do extra work that is not part of my job description, such as late night on-call work, I ensure I get paid for it.

However, no-one is going to die if I don't show up to work or if I crash the database server. If I get paid for additional responsibility, why shouldn't a doctor? Yes they get paid a lot already, but they could be doing my (not exactly badly paid) job instead, with a lot less stress, so where's the problem?

Thursday, June 12, 2008 12:03:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The BMA issues guidelines about payments for us in primary care, and fees such as ash cash, insurance medicals, some immunisations.
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Dr John Crippen's weekly diary. The trials and tribulations, the pleasures and pitfalls of family medicine in the modern British National Health Service.

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