Tuesday, April 29, 2008

Vitamin and enzyme supplements


Alison, a highly intelligent patient, came in last night clutching something a friend had cut out of one of the Sunday papers. Alison is in her late sixties, had a heart attack four years ago, has two coronary artery stents and has a cholesterol of 4.1. She is on Simvastatin. Her friend is also on a statin. They compared notes. The friend started to get painful joints on the statin and so started taking CoQ10. Her joints are much better. Alison is a keen walker and, after a few miles, her knees hurt and so reasonably enough she has concluded that CoQ10 might help. And you can buy CoQ10 for "only" £15.19 from Boots. What is more, Boots advertise CoQ10 on the internet, with a lot of other vitamin and enzyme supplements.
Kaneka Q10 (Coenzyme Q10)
Natural source, high quality and purity. Important for the production of energy from food as well as being a powerful antioxidant.  
Boots
Reading the question/answer under Drug Dilemma illustrated above, note that the answer is from Ingrid Haltink MBant DipION who is a "Consultant Nurtritionist." Like Patrick Holford only not as famous. Patrick Holford is one of the leading nutritionists in the country. He is so famous that many doctors now watch his every move.

Every GP in the country is faced with situations like this. There are so many red-herrings and plausible but scientifically nonsensical strands in Alison's presentation that it is difficult to know where to begin. How should the conscientious GP advise Alison? What I would like to say to her is that Co Q10 is medical wibble; that a lot of people in their late sixties get painful knees and that such pain is variable and intermittent. Temporal proximity does not prove a casual relationship. Suck a tea-bag and you may find the pain goes away. Statins classically cause painful muscles but not, usually, painful joints. I would like to say that many nutritionists are purveyors of medical wibble, and that anyone can call themselves a consultant. Heavens, we even have consultant nurses now. 

As any experienced GP will tell you, this sort of frontal assault rarely works. And Alison has more ammunition. She reads The Times and so is a big fan of Thomas Stuttard, their red wine imbibing, PSA obsessed medical correspondent.
When discussing coQ10 in supplement form with patients, doctors usually insist that it shouldn't be used in place of any prescribed medicine. Its value is as a supplement. Nor should it be used by a patient taking Warfarin, or suffering from any disease that results in bleeding or bruising. Boots has introduced a new natural form of coQ10 called Kaneka Q10 and from today is offering a seven-day trial pack to those with a lack of energy attributed to low levels of the coenzyme. There is a money-back guarantee if the patient's energy doesn't improve. Thomas Stuttaford in The Times
That is one of the most disgraceful bits of "medical" (sic) journalism I have ever read. How dare he use his position to advertise nonsense like this? Trouble is, people of Alison's generation think The Times is still a paper of record. They also think that if something is in a national newspaper, it "must be true". So I took refuge behind the excellent Ben Goldacre. He writes a blog called "Bad Science". Alison does not "do" blogs but she has heard of the Guardian, and Ben writes in The Guardian, so what he says must be true.
Pep, zing, oomph, energy. You won't find them here

Doctors love pills: so do the public, and the media, and of course so do pill companies. When one pill dies, another must take its place. Are you feeling tired? Demotivated? I bet you are. But there is a solution - a pill - pushed by no less than Dr Thomas Stuttaford of the Times. Just two days ago in an article about "office tiredness" he cheerfully rehashed a press release on Boots' exciting new pep pills. He opines at length on how tired we all feel in the office. So tired....  (Ben Goldacre)

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27 Comments:

Blogger Angus said...

Boots again!

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 3:41:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lipid clinic, Royal Victoria Hospital, Belfast has advised several men of my acquaint to take CoQ10 for muscle ache associated statins.

It may not be run by someone as eminent as (non professor) Patrick Holford & the poor patients have to make do with Prof Paul Nichols.

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 3:52:00 PM  
Blogger Rob Clark said...

DrC, I’m with you with regards to most supplements and enzymes etc.

Interestingly, on an anecdotal level quite a few people who have Type I diabetes and take statins have reported on the benefits of CoQ10. It’s fairly well-known within the ‘diabetes community’.

Can you explain why this might be so? Personally I’d be less skeptical if I thought there might be some science behind it…

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 4:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Dr John Crippen said...

Interestingly, on an anecdotal level quite a few people who have Type I diabetes and take statins have reported on the benefits of CoQ10. It’s fairly well-known within the ‘diabetes community’.

+++++++

Sure. It has a poncey pretentious name, it is advertised widely in the newspapers, and it is promoted by a ...er.. certain sort of practitioner.

When you say "they reported on the benefit", what do you mean?

Is there a real evidence base.

Finally, maybe, of course, it works. But I doubt it somehow


JOhn

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 4:18:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry am I mistaken?

Are you a G P or a specialist?

I thought GP meant a dr who had general knowledge about some aspects of health care and not specialist knowledge of anything!

So why on earth would we listen ?

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 4:23:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

see 1990 Merck patents (4933165)-
combined statin with coq10




COENZYME Q10 (UBIQUINONE) DEFICIENCY CAUSED BY STATINS

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12353945&dopt=Abstract
Study report: http://www.annals.org/issues/v137n7/nts/200210010-00004.html
Dr. Phillips study mentioned in a Wall Street Journal article (This is smooth muscle, not cardiac muscle.) Conclusion "statin therapy may be as sociated with increased oxidation injury…mild adverse effects of statins that are difficult to --------ess might be much more prevalent than widely considered "
http://www.impostertrial.com Is Myopathy Part Of Statin Therapy? Dr. Phillips study website, with info for Patient and Physician

Cohen & Gold, Mitochondrial Cytopathy in Adults: What we know so far
http://www.ccjm.org/pdffiles/COHEN701.PDF
(See "Heart" in table page 4, and section on page 7) CoQ10 If statins cause CoQ10 deficiency, and CoQ10 deficiency causes mitochondrial disease, what are the symptoms of mitochondrial disease? Heart pain is one of them.
Oxidation Injury in Patients Receiving HMG-CoA Reductase Inhibitors: Occurrence in Patients without Enzyme Elevation or Myopathy

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 4:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

'Heavens, we even have consultant nurses now.'

Yep, and after a few years substandard training we have consultant medics/surgeons/anaesthetists/paediatricians/gynaecologists etc etc.

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 4:28:00 PM  
Blogger Rob Clark said...

HI DrC, what I mean is that people with diabetes in whom statins have caused muscle ache (muscle, as you rightly say, not joint) have reported a lessening of that side affect when taking CoQ10.

I did say this was anecdotal rather than evidence-based, but fairly widespread across a number of diabetes forums, support groups etc.

Haven’t tried it myself as I consider all that stuff bollocks until proven otherwise.

It’s notable that ‘Ingrid’ doesn’t make any effort to explain WHY CoQ10 might help reduce muscle ache – this is what I want to know so I can base my decision on science not some waffle about free radicals.

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 4:33:00 PM  
Anonymous nt said...

I could discuss the studies that show statins improve all cause mortality independantly of their effect on cholesterol, and I could also ask why Coenzyme Q10 should have any effect on mortality or muscle/joint aches (as it is claimed, as with all similar 'supplements' that it is somewhat of a cure all), but I won't.

Instead, I ask, why is it that these things are only advocated by those with a direct financial stake in their sale?

A doctor doesn't get paid by the amount of medications they prescribe, nor by the type. Pharmacists, Nutritionists, and most alternative practitioners do. The sceptic in me says CoQ10 is BS. Medline and Cochrane agree. If it is so good, I am sure the statin manufacturers will add it to their existing formulations as they come out of patent....

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 4:58:00 PM  
Anonymous Jane_T said...

Research into CoQ10 for energy and diabetes (type 1 in rats, type 2 in people). I would be interested in educated opinions on these studies (as a lay person, much of the language is beyond me).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18272335?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Antifatigue effects of coenzyme Q10 during physical fatigue.

CONCLUSION: Oral administration of coenzyme Q10 improved subjective fatigue sensation and physical performance during fatigue-inducing workload trials and might prevent unfavorable conditions as a result of physical fatigue.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18318910?ordinalpos=17&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Effects of acute and 14-day coenzyme Q10 supplementation on exercise performance in both trained and untrained individuals.

CONCLUSION: Acute supplementation with CoQ10 resulted in higher muscle CoQ10 concentration, lower serum SOD oxidative stress, and higher MDA levels during and following exercise. Chronic CoQ10 supplementation increased plasma CoQ10 concentrations and tended to increase time to exhaustion. Results indicate that acute and chronic supplementation of CoQ10 may affect acute and/or chronic responses to various types of exercise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16388100?ordinalpos=26&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Effect of coenzyme Q10 on catalase activity and other antioxidant parameters in streptozotocin-induced diabetic rats.

In conclusion, CoQ10 treatment significantly improved deranged carbohydrate and lipid metabolism of experimental chemically induced diabetes in rats. The mechanism of its beneficial effect appears to be its antioxidant property.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12428181?ordinalpos=25&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Coenzyme Q10 improves blood pressure and glycaemic control: a controlled trial in subjects with type 2 diabetes.

CONCLUSIONS: These results show that CoQ supplementation may improve blood pressure and long-term glycaemic control in subjects with type 2 diabetes, but these improvements were not associated with reduced oxidative stress, as assessed by F2-isoprostanes.

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 6:10:00 PM  
Blogger Dr Snuggles said...

A fool and his money are soon parted and there is little we can do to save anonymous mugs from their own stupidity. So be it.

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 6:29:00 PM  
Blogger Elisabeth said...

"Important for the production of energy from food as well as being a powerful antioxidant."

Oh! Nice.

I've spent more than my fair share of time around alternative medicine type folk. Ask them to tell you more about 'the production of energy from food'. Ask them about ATP.

Watch. Enjoy.

A few years ago I found it funny, in a twisted sort of way, that some of the people in stores and on the web pushing these products know less about human biology than the average A-level student. Now, it scares the living daylights out of me. They sound very convincing when they talk about how well these products work, and how little doctors truly know about the human body.

But the stuff on their shelves. Brilliant stuff. This one strengthens the liver. That one cleans your kidneys. This other one, this one right here, well, it's just plain GOOD. Real good.

Oh! Don't get me started. I have heard too much I wish I hadn't.

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 7:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Since no-one seems to know what Co Q10 I got out my biochemistry book to confirm for myself that is aka ubiquinone. It's an essential part of the mitochondrial electron transport chain plus has metabolic anti-oxidant function. It is synthesized via cholesterol pathway so blocked by statins ( HMG CoA reductase inhibitors)
That's why statins might mess it up.
It makes sense to me.....

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 7:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Noel C said...

I have been taking q10 supplements since I read a number of peer reviewed journal articles covering the subject of q10 and migraine. Since then the frequency of my migraines has drastically reduced. Hardly proof but then the standard "avoid red wine and chocolate" advice regularly given out by GPs on the subject of migraine has about as much research backing. Is that "medical wibble" too?

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 8:06:00 PM  
Anonymous Dr Aust said...

For anyone interested in CoQ10, apart from Badscience, Prof David Colquhoun has had a good look at this on his blog, and I have also written about it on mine as An imperfect (Q) Ten.

Apologies for the blatant self-publicizing, but for those with a taste for puerile humour, the latter post includes my own imaginary endorsement of CoQ10 "energy pills" somewhat in the style of Dr Stuttaford.

Re. actual use of CoQ10, there is some discussion in the posts and comments on the various blogs, including some references. The basic message is that despite the plausible-sounding biological rationale for people taking statins, the studies don't really support CoQ10 supplementation, although more trials are ongoing - there is a summary on Bandolier here

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 9:31:00 PM  
Anonymous Jane_T said...

Dr Aust, have you looked at the links I posted? The first two mention fatigue and physical performance rather than energy. I'm assuming they are too small to draw too much from, but are they enough to suggest that further research is worthwhile?

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 10:26:00 PM  
Blogger Claire said...

Specifically on the statins/CQ10, the Mayo Clinic's current position is that this is not recommended, as there is insufficient good quality evidence:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/coenzyme-q10/AN01541

Mayo also has a more general piece on CoQ10, http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/coenzyme-q10/NS_patient-coenzymeq10 .

Again, the position is that the evidence is at present weak for most claims.

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 10:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Dr Aust said...

Jane_t

Should start by repeating that I am a PhD scientist and researcher, not a medical doctor.

There is certainly lots of ongoing research into CoQ10 - I saw a entire scientific journal issue devoted it the other day. However, small and "badly-designed" studies (i.e. studies where you can't reliably tell anything) are a major problem. This is especially true for work in humans, which for the purposes of "Is it worth taking" are the only studies that really matter.

Anyway, as Claire says, the evidence for CoQ10 for most indications is currently pretty weak, see the Mayo Clinic's summary. This is the same as Claire's link, and is in plain language as it is a patient info site.

"Pretty weak" effectively means "don't bother", especially if there is some other sensible thing you can do instead - e.g. eating more fruit and veg, or taking up sensible exercise, or getting more sleep. Plenty of evidence base for those doing you good, which cannot be said for CoQ10.

The slight get-out is that there is no strong evidence CoQ10 is harmful - though again the Mayo site is worth reading about this,as some unwanted effects have been reported - so some people will always say "well, why not take it"... this being the loophole the Alternative types drive the cartloads of supplement pills through.

The answer, of course, is first "It hasn't been tested rigorously, so how do we know it's completely safe under all circumstances?" (err...you don't). And second "So... that's 55 pence a pill for something that almost certainly isn't doing anything."

Personally I shall be sticking to the broccoli, fresh fruit salad and glass of red wine route to "antioxidant health". Boots and Patrick Holford are quite rich enough already.

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 11:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Jane_T said...

Thanks for the Mayo link Claire, it's a great summary and thanks for your thoughts dr aust, though I'll not be suggesting the red wine idea to my children with diabetes!! LOL.

It sounds as though lots of preliminary studies have found that it may be useful (for such a wide variety of illnesses too!) but larger and better studies are needed before it can be recommended. Presumably if this happens, it will become available on prescription for those that would struggle to buy it themselves.

It seems a shame that so much time, effort and money goes into studies that are disregarded. Or is it usual for small studies like this to be done first to see if it's worth carrying out larger, more careful studies?

Wednesday, April 30, 2008 2:01:00 AM  
Anonymous Oldgit said...

Jane-T
What does LOL mean?

Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:37:00 AM  
Anonymous Jane_T said...

oldgit,

It means 'laugh out loud'.

Wednesday, April 30, 2008 12:08:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dr. C., Dr. Xeumei Huang MD, Univ Chapel Hill NC school of Med, is undertaking a study to determine if an association exists btn lipophilic statin therapy and the onset or worsening of Parkinson's disease. Her study proposal is based upon findings that individuals with PD also exhibit abnormally low LDL levels. Yes, temporal association does not prove causation. One must remember that the inhibition of HMGCoA reductases by statins occurs 14 steps and 9-10 enzymatic reactions before the final steps in inhibiting cholesterologenesis. In addition to reduction of cholesterol, HMG CoA reductase inhibitors accomplish the following thru the blocking of the mavelonate pathway:depresses isopentyladenoside, required for synthesis of RNA; depletes coenzyme Q10 levels(thus potentially impacting complex I of the mt electron chain resulting in mitochondrial dysfunction as well as an increase in reactive Oxygen species and thus increased oxidative stress); thru interference with prenylation of proteins, depresses selenoproteins and the small GTPase; abnormal neuronal tau phosphorylation (meske V et al, European Jrl of Neuroscience, vol 17: 93, 2003,-- the neuro disease entities identified as "tauopathies" are well known); inhibition of nuclear factor kappa B (and thus our immune system functioning); interruption of the pathway to dolichol production (interfering with glycoprotein synthesis as well as neuropeptide production)Yes, statins accomplish much--some of it wanted--much of it not wanted. If one escapes the problems of blocking the pathway to all these metabolic substrates, and only experiences the effects of the profound statin anti-inflammatory effects and increased perfusion, then all is well. If any of these other blocked metabolic pathways are important, then??
Dr. C., are you aware of what the mevalonate pathway accomplishes? and what the functions of dolichols, nuclear factor Kappa B, selenoproteins, isopentyladenoside,increased tau phosphorylation, coenzyme Q10, happen to be? Might help to research these findings :Mauch, et. al.Science 9 Nov 2001 vol 294 P1354-57) Neurons need cholesterol secreted by glial cells to form and maintain functional synapses. and cholesterol is necessary for production and transport of vesicles necessary for neurotransmission. If one accepts the concept of neuronal plasticity in the adult brain, then deliberately suppressing cholesterol metabolism in the brain seems questionable. and remember, brain cholesterol has a very long half life of ~5 yrs. clinical studies lasting less than 5 yrs may not pick up effects of suppression of brain cholesterol.

Wednesday, April 30, 2008 9:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Skeptigirl said...

While I hate to criticize anyone blogging against non-evidence based medicine, I found this little jewel buried in your entry and wondered if you had a clue:

"I would like to say that many nutritionists are purveyors of medical wibble, and that anyone can call themselves a consultant. Heavens, we even have consultant nurses now."

Just an FYI, we even have a doctorate in nursing degree now. Maybe you should spend a minute or two finding out just what it is nurses do. You seem to have a slightly exaggerated view of the part that medical care plays in the treatment of disease. If all we need is to prescribe the medical treatment, then by all means let's have the family members take care of hospitalized patients. Think of the money we could save.

Friday, May 02, 2008 2:51:00 AM  
Blogger Health Psych said...

I was prescribed Q10 by a mitochondrial disease expert (neurologist) for muscle myopathy. Standardly recommended for such scenarios but then there is little else to offer.

It seemed to help, a placebo effect perhaps?

Tuesday, May 06, 2008 6:56:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Q10, Vitamin B, yams, et cetera aren't the only 'natural' items that help with cholesterol and symptoms that go along with prescribed statins. There's a number of vitamins and supplements, many that should be part of a normal diet, that can enhance or supplant a drug like Lipitor, Crestor, etc. See the reference list over at the Dietary Suppllement Information Bureau.

Thursday, May 08, 2008 2:55:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I did say this was anecdotal rather than evidence-based, but fairly widespread across a number of diabetes forums, support groups etc.
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Wednesday, July 02, 2008 7:19:00 AM  
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Saturday, December 06, 2008 9:20:00 AM  

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