Coffee shop feminists do not understand rape
The latest Britblog Roundup was hosted by Redemption Blues, a site headed by a picture to die for. (Which mountain is it?) I was gratified that Dr Crippen’s recent post on Rowan Pelling and the White Witch was featured but then concerned to read the following:For those with the means to foot the bill, an independent midwife can indeed offer something your average, overworked NHS doctor cannot: she has time to build up a rapport with the expectant mother, displays empathy and actually listens rather than bossing around. Without such qualities the lobbying would hardly make an impact. Callousness and overweening arrogance are – alas – not in short supply amongst medical professionals, many of whom have a less considerate bedside manner than Gregory House. Nor would I dismiss the testimonies of women who have suffered appallingly at the hands of obstetricians, as attested to by Amity Reed in her devastating critique Not a happy birthday. Nor is medical rape confined to the maternity suites. (Redemption Blues)Independent midwives’ case load is such that they have more time to spend with each of their private patients. No getting away from that. I am sure most of them have an excellent rapport with their patients too. It is a shame that that rapport is built on a touchy-feely but fraudulent framework of medical practice that falls so far short of normal safety standards that the independent midwives are uninsurable. And the generalisation about NHS doctors and midwives being callous, arrogant, inconsiderate and lacking in empathy is an unsubstantiated slur. Most doctors and midwives working in the NHS are decent people doing their best in difficult circumstances.
We are led to a "birth story" written by Amity Reed who styles herself as
“a writer and a mother as well as a reproductive activist”.Read it. It is horrific. Do I believe it in its entirety? No, I do not. But I do believe that Amity's friend had a dreadful experience and that the midwife’s management was disgraceful. I have on numerous occasions seen midwives treat women callously, and my sympathy is thus with the patient. Before you say it, I have also seen doctors behave callously towards women in labour, but not as often as midwives.
Then we hear from Debs, who is a "radfemsister". She describes a “medical rape”
Before having our son, we experienced 5 years of ‘trying’ and failing to conceive. During this time I underwent many tests and procedures which I won’t bore you with now, but the one I’m going to tell you about was called a Hysterosalpingogram (HSG) - a stupidly long name for what is actually a very simple procedure.

How do the medical specialists describe a hysterosalpingogram:
Investigations of InfertilityThere is nothing stupid about the name. It conveys in one word all the information that Debs can only convey in a paragraph. It’s not a simple test. It is a sophisticated investigation requiring a high level of skill. Debs does not understand it:
The hysterosalpingogram procedure is performed in the X-ray department and usually takes about 15-20 minutes. How is the HSG procedure carried out? The patient lays on a table under the X-ray imager. The doctor inserts a speculum (an instrument inserted into the vagina to visualize the cervix), cleans the cervix from any discharge, then a fine tube is inserted through the cervix and a special contrast medium is injected. The flow of the dye from the uterus to the tubes is observed through an X-ray image intensifier (which looks like a TV screen). Films of the HSG are usually taken for the record. (IVF & hysterosalpingograms)
When done properly, this procedure should be roughly the same discomfort level as a smear test, and last about 5 minutes. (Debs)Simply not true. A smear usually requires a vaginal speculum to be in place for less than a minute. This test takes much longer.
Unfortunately for me my regular (very experienced) consultant was on leave the day I was due to have the procedure, and I was ’seen to’ by a much younger and evidently far less experienced doctor. I have a tilted uterus, which in itself is not really a problem, just one of those quirks of anatomy like being left-handed or something. A tilted uterus should not have been an issue in the carrying out of an HSG, but, apparently, for this inexperienced doctor, it was. It transpired during the procedure that the doctor was not even a gynaecologist, but a radiologist!I except entirely that the “young” doctor may have been less experienced. Or it may be that Deb’s anatomy made the test more difficult perform. Debs does not understand female anatomy. All uteruses are tilted. Usually forward (anteverted), occasionally backwards (retroverted). There are a number of variants (I illustrate only two) not in themselves abnormal, but some of them can make hysterosalpingograms more difficult:

Hysteroslapingograms are often done by radiologists as they are imaging tests, and the radiologists have more experience of such investigations.
I must have asked him at least twice during the procedure to please stop, and I would wait for an appointment with my usual doctor (who had done previous procedures on me and always been fine), but he was adamant he would keep trying, despite my asking him not to. There were other members of staff in the room who just stood around looking rather awkward. When he finally did stop, and removed the speculum, I was so relieved I think I laughed, and said it was okay when he apologised. It was not okay though, and I was sore and bled for 3 days afterwards.Leaving aside Debs poor understanding of the test, and her exaggerated presentation of the facts, we must accept that, for whatever reason, it did not go as well as expected, and was unpleasant. Things like that can happen in the hands of the most skilled operators and we all sympathise with Deb for the unpleasant experience. But then Debs loses all sense of reality. She starts to compare the experience to being raped:
And, if it was rape, how many thousands of other women have experienced unreported, unrecognised rape like this? I have never been raped, in the sense of that word as most people use it, so I can’t say, “It felt like rape”. But it certainly felt how I would imagine rape feels. And all the ingredients are there: man penetrating woman’s body, woman telling him to stop, man carrying on regardless….No, Debs, you have not ever been raped. If you had, you would not be talking like this.
As with a lot of atrocities involving the medical profession, there is a fog of silence around this issue. Women understandably don’t want to talk about it, and the doctors definitely don’t want to hear about. It seems that often when coming across the medical profession during your life, especially if you are a woman, it is too much to expect that you will be treated with respect, and your voice will be heard in amongst all the medical jargon and other people speaking for you. It is time to speak out about this, because the medical profession provides a microcosm for the wider world. The attitudes of men in general are crystallised in the attitudes of doctors - that is, that a woman’s body is just a piece of meat, and her words are of no consequence and should be ignored.Rape? Atrocities?? "The attitudes of men in general are crystallised in the attitudes of doctors - that is, that a woman’s body is just a piece of meat, and her words are of no consequence and should be ignored."???
At this stage, one worries about Deb’s psychological status. She really does have an obsession, doesn’t she? One wonders how she ever managed to allow herself to be impregnated in the first place. Let us go back to the first story from Amity. She said:
“Over the years, I have seen far too many women who have been raped. There will be others, patients of mine, who have not sought help from me and possibly, indeed, not sought help from anyone. I have also seen some women who have had bad obstetric experiences. Sometimes not anyone’s fault. Sometimes, sadly, there have been problems with unsympathetic doctors or midwives. I have seen patients who, as a result of their bad experiences, have developed post-natal depression. I have never had a patient compare their experience to rape. A bad obstetric experience is not rape, nor is it anything like it.
I make no excuse for some of the appalling things that have been done to women in the name of good obstetric care, but this is not rape. The worst obstetrician, or the cruellest and most unsympathetic midwife, may mistreat their patients, but this is not rape. There are far too many Caesarean Sections, but they are not rape. Hospital deliveries may not be as enjoyable experience as home deliveries, but they are not rape."
Read these two comments:
But rape? No. Bad obstetric care is not rape.
Introducing the concept of rape into a discussion on the merits of home births is an attempt, consciously or not, to hi-jack the argument. It reflects some deep primeval fear of childbirth and fear and resentment of doctors, particular male doctors. Worst of all, pseudo-feminists like Debs and Amity demean and trivialise the experience of women who have been raped.
The idea of being raped while giving birth is difficult to imagine. In most people’s minds, rape means forced sexual intercourse where a penis is inserted, forcefully and without consent, into another person’s body. Some broaden that definition to include objects as well as body parts. But still, we often picture rape as an act of demented sexual anger and misogyny, perpetuated by sick individuals. In fact, rape is more frequently a display of power and control, a way to subjugate another human being. And it doesn’t just happen in dark alleyways, bedrooms tinged with the smell of alcohol and ‘mixed signals’, or in war zones. It can (and does) happen in some of the most respected and revered institutions in the land - hospitals.We now realise that Debs and Amity are not real feminists. They are part-time coffee-shop feminists, doing a bit of “right on” pseudo-feminist blogging between shopping expeditions and the school run. Debs and Amity are a disgrace to real feminism. They both describe admittedly unpleasant experiences in terms that any woman who has really been raped would find offensive. This sort of hysterical nonsense is frequently brought up by the pseudo-feminists as a prelude to justifying home deliveries, if possible managed by independent midwives. I have written about this on many occasions:
A woman who is raped while giving birth does not experience the assault in a way that fits neatly within the typical definitions we hold true in civilised society. A penis is usually nowhere to be found in the story and the perpetrator may not even possess one. But fingers, hands, suction cups, forceps, needles and scissors… these are the tools of birth rape and they are wielded with as much force and as little consent as if a stranger grabbed a passer-by off the street and tied her up before having his way with her.
“Over the years, I have seen far too many women who have been raped. There will be others, patients of mine, who have not sought help from me and possibly, indeed, not sought help from anyone. I have also seen some women who have had bad obstetric experiences. Sometimes not anyone’s fault. Sometimes, sadly, there have been problems with unsympathetic doctors or midwives. I have seen patients who, as a result of their bad experiences, have developed post-natal depression. I have never had a patient compare their experience to rape. A bad obstetric experience is not rape, nor is it anything like it.
I make no excuse for some of the appalling things that have been done to women in the name of good obstetric care, but this is not rape. The worst obstetrician, or the cruellest and most unsympathetic midwife, may mistreat their patients, but this is not rape. There are far too many Caesarean Sections, but they are not rape. Hospital deliveries may not be as enjoyable experience as home deliveries, but they are not rape."
Read these two comments:
“I was a victim of rape at 14years old, a virgin. I had a hospital delivery and specifically said no epidural for baby no.1. I had an epidural (against my wishes) during transition. When being on my back and numb from the waist down it gave me flashbacks to the rape.They call it body memory. It was horrendous, so bad that my partner left me a month after my son was born. He couldn’t handle my PTSD. I had no anger towards the doctor, only myself. Of course I was angry towards the perpetrator who raped me as a teenager but I just didn’t expect it to come flooding back to me when giving birth. I had no control over this. It just happened. Completely out of the blue.And a second comment from an experienced obstetrician:
I believe that many survivors of abuse and rape are reminded of it by feeling out of control. This is what labour can do. For me it was being numbed from the waist down and flat on my back (this is how as a child I disassociated myself from the experience, by numbing and removing myself from my body).”
"I am repeatedly struck by the high level of self-reported childhood sexual abuse and rape in homebirth advocates. I put in the words "rape survivor homebirth" into Google and found 15 separate instance of phrases like "since I am a survivor of rape, I wanted a homebirth" or "as a survivor of rape I knew that the way my OB treated me what just like rape". There definitely seems to be a notable association of these phenomena: a history of previous sexual assault, a bad childbirth experience, and PTSD. Here's my question:Childbirth is a painful and dangerous business. It is more dangerous to a woman’s health than anything she will experience until she reaches old age. It can be traumatic and it can go wrong. We must do everything we can to make sure we minimise the disasters and provide support thereafter. However good our care, things will go wrong. However kind most doctors and midwives are, there is always the occassional rotton apple. So, however hard we try, a few women will have bad, or even awful, experiences.
Why is there such a ferocious insistence that it was the childbirth experience that caused the PTSD and not the previous sexual assault?
There seems to be a large group of women who report being sexually assaulted in some way, and they are adamant in their insistence that the assault did not have serious psychological repercussions. They were fine until they had a baby. The psychological issues became apparent then and, therefore, it must have been the doctor's fault.
What is going on here? No matter what the doctor did, it could not begin to compare to the original assault. I am almost forcibly struck by the level of anger toward the doctors. Yet there is a curious lack of emotion toward the original assailant. The level of anger directed toward the doctor seems startlingly high, and the level of anger toward the assailant seems curiously low.
It feels like there is a psychological need to blame the doctor INSTEAD of the original attacker. Why should that be?" (Dr Amy Tuteur MD - homepage)
But rape? No. Bad obstetric care is not rape.
Introducing the concept of rape into a discussion on the merits of home births is an attempt, consciously or not, to hi-jack the argument. It reflects some deep primeval fear of childbirth and fear and resentment of doctors, particular male doctors. Worst of all, pseudo-feminists like Debs and Amity demean and trivialise the experience of women who have been raped.
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Amity tried to put a long reply to this post into the comments, but it got lost in cyberspace. Her more detailed reply is over at "The F Word" and starts:
The F Word welcomes comments, provided they agree with them. They say:Amity Reed has written a response to comments on her birth rape feature for The F-Word, made by an NHS doctor blogging under the name ‘Dr Crippen’.
Having just emerged from yet another luxury shopping trip between school runs and coffee shop natters with my other part-time feminist friends (Ha! I am a full-time feminist and an at-home mother struggling to put food on the table many weeks, thank you), I was not at all surprised to read this scathing dismissal of medical and birth rape victims. The author’s characterisation of these women as fantasists, delusional and hysterical females with ridiculous expectations of bodily autonomy, was resignedly expected. Dr. Crippen exhibits the very lack of empathy that Debs and I dissected by dismissing these stories outright. In a move straight from the misogynist medical handbook - make them feel stupid and reinforce knowledge over personal experience - he follows the checklist to a T:
Refusal to acknowledge the patient’s experience? Check. Outright discounting of her interpretation of events? Check. Use of words such as ‘sophisticated’ and ‘high level of skill’ to reinforce authority? Claims of patient ignorance and ‘exaggeration of facts’ when he was not even present for the event? Yep, it’s all there, in all its ugly and hateful glory. This is exactly the kind of arrogant attitude that creates a chasm between those with a skilful and sympathetic bedside manner and those whose emotional detachment can lead to patient violation.... full post here
This blog is a safe and friendly space for feminists and feminist allies. Debate and critique are welcome where it is constructive and deepens analysis or understanding. Anti-feminist comments will not be approved. We get to decide what's anti-feminist.That's a feminist's definition of freedom of speech, I suppose.
Labels: bad obstetric care, home births, pseudo-feminists, rape









175 Comments:
"...pseudo-feminists like Debs and Amithy demean and trivialise the experience of women who have been raped."
They demean and trivialise ALL women, everywhere. By casting the tiny suspicion that any normal woman harbours the same bizarre, self-obsessed, outdated feminist cant as these two stupid bints!
As a female medic, I do not envy my male colleagues when it comes to intimate examinations or procedures involving female patients, for precisely this reason. '...fingers, hands, suction cups, forceps, needles and scissors..' - my God, this woman needs a reality check! Would she rather have a breech birth or shoulder dystocia at home? With no scary instruments? Resulting in a dead or brain-damaged baby?
'Birth rape' FOR CHRIST'S SAKE?!
This beggars belief. Childbirth is not a sodding picnic in the park, and these 'rapists' are trying to ensure that you and your child come through the experience safely.
Thank you Dr Crippen for this enlightening, though deeply worrying, post.
I think the topic is being wrongly framed.
Poor communication, which leads to feeling like the hospital experience is out of your control and unconsensual, is one thing. Calling it "birth rape" is another.
It not only devalues rape victims and invites the condemnation of 'hysterical women', but it actually obscures a real issue that could be solved. namely, that better comunication would lead to the process feeling cooperative rather than a violation.
I feel sorry for these messed up women. They blame the doctor or midwife because they're a more tangible and easier target than the rapist in the past who they can't "get".
They do trivialise real rape unfortunately. I've had a colonoscopy with biopsies. It was invasive, much more so than anything in a vaginal birth, unpleasant and bloody sore despite the sedation. It was something unpleasant in life to endure. Nothing more.
If these women have associations with previous traumatic events, so be it. I'm sorry that's the case. They should seek therapy however, not make wild statements with inappropriate nomenclature, that simply makes them look unstable and deranged.
Dr C - I think you're missing the point these women are trying to make. They are saying that they found the way in which the medical staff dealt with their bodies deeply violating. Rape is the violation of a woman's body. These women are using a word that people can relate to to describe the awfulness of their experiences.
Whether you agree with them or not is beside the point; these women had bad birth experiences and felt their bodies were violated in some way, this is turn caused them severe stress. Every women's experience of birth is different and will be subjective by its very nature.
I agree that using the word 'rape' is emotive - but that's how these women feel...
A bad obstetric experience is not rape, nor is it anything like it.
No, I don't think it's rape either. But nothing like it? Are you sure? Let's assume that Debs' account is not an "exaggerated presentation of the facts", as you put it. She describes a doctor inserting something in her vagina with her consent, and then ignoring her requests to remove it and continuing with an internal examination that is unpleasant enough at the best of times, whilst other people stood in the room watching.
Hmm. It sort of does sound like a violation to me. I hate to get technical on your ass, Dr C, and I share your reluctance to characterise bad obstetric care as rape, because it is not terribly helpful - but it's not as unlike rape as you imply. I seem to recall that under the (relatively) new Sexual Offences Act inserting an object into a woman's vagina without her consent - an all too common feature of sexual violence - does constitute rape. As rape is a continuing offence, refusing to remove an object that had been placed there by consent upon request would also constitute rape.
I agree that it is not helpful to call this rape, because at the end of the day one assumes that the doctor genuinely thought that he was doing the best thing for his patient and there was (presumably) no sexual element on either side. And I agree with your correspondent that bad obstetric care can act as a catalyst for releasing the bottled-up reaction to a different earlier trauma. Yet I am bound to say that if a doctor refused to remove something from my vagina which was causing me pain when I asked him to, and if I wasn't in a position to get up and do it myself, and if other people were standing around watching and not helping - well, I think I would probably feel angry and, yes, violated. I don't like Debs calling it rape either, but if it happened the way she said it did then she is certainly entitled to feel violated and abused.
I seem to recall that under the (relatively) new Sexual Offences Act inserting an object into a woman's vagina without her consent - an all too common feature of sexual violence - does constitute rape. As rape is a continuing offence, refusing to remove an object that had been placed there by consent upon request would also constitute rape.
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Yes, I know.
But Kathy, whatever happened in the hospital XRay department, awful though it may have been, was nothing like rape. Was nothing like being pounced on in the park and being pulled into the bushes.
If a man at the prostate clinic complains about pain when the urologist does a PR on him, are we going to accuse the doctor of homosexual rape and buggery?
It's too silly for words.
I see and help and support women who have been raped, and it is not he same.
Sorry, I sympathise with them, but this is over emoted codswallop that demeans real feminists and, worse, real rape victims.
JOhn
Bad obstetric experiences DO occur. These women (unlike Debs did) should complain and make sure that the Doctors/Midwives involved are made to change their practices. Saying that it was OK and then claiming on the internet that this was Rape is NOT the way to go about it. You need to complain to make sure it doesn't happen to other women and that the staff involved change their practice.
I agree that bad obstetric practices can be horrendous for the women involved. But it is not the same thing as rape and I agree with Dr Crippen that these issues should be kept separate.
Women who have been through Rape have been through horrific ordeals and over the years the campaign to make their voices heard AND believed is one that has taken much effort. This campaign is still not complete.
These claims of obstetric rape (usually written on the internet in hyperbolic fashion) only help confuse the issue and do terrific damage to the cause of recognising the issue of rape, by making women who say they have been raped look hysterical.
Bad Obstetric Experiences should be recognised and investigated, but should not be confused with rape.
was nothing like rape. Was nothing like being pounced on in the park and being pulled into the bushes.
Rape (the accepted crime of rape, prosecuted as rape) can occur without any 'pouncing on'/'pulling into the bushes'. FYI.
I agree with anonymous 18.00 and katy newton.
Well written jayann and I second everything you write. It's a comic book analysis to portray rape as 'being pounced on in the park and pulled into the bushes.' An just as trivial. Rape can and does happen with someone the woman knows and trusts.
A patient puts their trust in the doctor/midwife. It's a delicate relationship. Good communication is the key.
As I read this, I was reminded of Godwin's Law, an aphorism for the Internet age about which much more on Wikipedia. Just as ineloquent newsgroup posters of yore groped for Hitler and the Nazis when confronted with something to which they cannot articulate a reasoned response, so the armchair feminists cry rape. And there ends reasoned discussion.
It is a shame, because beneath all the loathing and phallophobia, some of them may have a point. But by invoking rape - co-opting it as though it were just some useful rhetorical tool – they destroy their own credibility and undermine any point they might have had, whilst, as you correctly point out, trivialising the pain and anguish of those who have actually suffered rape.
It does make one wonder why men bother training to become gynaecologists.
Anonymous and Jayann
Now YOU are trivialising
I wasn't suggesting for a moment that the park/bushes was an exhaustive definition of rape. Of course it isn't. But it IS a very real example, and a particularly horrific one.
John
John, you wrote
was nothing like rape. Was nothing like being pounced on in the park and being pulled into the bushes.
incidentally, you also wrote
We now realise that Debs and Amity are not real feminists. They are part-time coffee-shop feminists, doing a bit of “right on” pseudo-feminist blogging between shopping expeditions and the school run.
and that is presumptuous and also absurd.
I agree with Jayann and Katy Newton here. "Treatment without consent is assault", is what I was taught, and that applies to invasive investigations as well. Consent can be withdrawn at any time, and what Debs described sounds like assault to me. Simply calling it "an unpleasant experience" is trivialising in the opposite direction.
You say that a hysterosalpingogram is often done by a Radiologist as they are Imaging tests and the Radiologists have more experience of such investigations. I beg to differ. A Radiologist is NOT a gynaecologist and would have little experience of intimate examinations and inserting a catheter into a cervix although their expertise at imaging after the introduction of contrast is not in doubt.
I think the difference between 'rape' and these terrible experiences are that, unlike a rapist, the Doctor/Midwife usually (I stress 'usually') has the best interests of the patient in mind. There are plenty of things that patients may not like due to the fact they are unpleasant, painful or worse. But there are reasons behind these facts. Bad practice is not particularly comparable to rape, in my opinion.
You say that a hysterosalpingogram is often done by a Radiologist as they are Imaging tests and the Radiologists have more experience of such investigations. I beg to differ. A Radiologist is NOT a gynaecologist and would have little experience of intimate examinations and inserting a catheter into a cervix although their expertise at imaging after the introduction of contrast is not in doubt.
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Wrong. Radiologists are THE experts in interventional percutaneous, intra-arterial medical procedures all done under USS XRay or even CT control. Mrs C does a weekly HSP list and does all the HCPs for the hospital for ALL the gynaecologists (who do none).
John
"You say that a hysterosalpingogram is often done by a Radiologist as they are Imaging tests and the Radiologists have more experience of such investigations. I beg to differ. A Radiologist is NOT a gynaecologist and would have little experience of intimate examinations and inserting a catheter into a cervix although their expertise at imaging after the introduction of contrast is not in doubt."
A RADIOLOGIST ISN'T A UROLOGIST, BUT GUESS WHO YOU CALL WHEN YOU HAVE A BLOCKED KIDNEY THAT NEEDS A NEPHROSTOMY PUTTING IN?
while it may seem a tad on the ludicrous side for someone to come up with the idea of 'birth rape,' i for one don't think that makes it okay to attack and ridicule a woman who had a negative experience involving her most sensitive and secret body parts.
before i had my daughter (i can sense some of you stop reading here), i'd never even been to a gynecologist. the man who filled that role for me was easily six and a half feet tall to my five and a half, and had hands the size of my face. i don't blame his physical traits on him, you understand, but can't you see where this could be incredibly intimidating? before i became his patient, the only people who'd seen my vagina before had been family members and the father of my child.
now, maybe that was a lot of needless information just to say that some people lack empathy. i'm not trying to be a feminist or anything, saying all this, i'm just trying to convey the thought that, hey: if you were suddenly doing the most important thing in your life thus far (say, carrying a child for instance), and some dude kept messing around your vagina (your VAGINA, for phuck's sake!), wouldn't you be a LITTLE apprehensive? wouldn't that apprehension increase if you asked specifically for this male doctor not to do something that he went on and did anyway? wouldn't it trouble you if this was considered normal, and most people just thought you should shut up and take it?
'cos, i mean, it would for me. especially with all the hype and horror stories you hear when pregnant surrounding birth and prenatal procedures. i mean, hell, they only relatively recently figured out that you don't have to do an episiotomy on every woman who gives birth, and that's kind of unsettling to me.
anyway, empathy, people. try not to think of the things other people go through in terms of YOUR life experiences. try to put yourself in someone else's mind for a minute.
'kay, i'm done rambling.
As has been pointed out above, if a medical procedure is carried out without consent this can constitute assault. Therefore if inserting an object into the vagina without consent is rape (which it is, legally speaking, no doubt about that), why is this instance of inserting an object into the vagina without consent not 'rape'?.
Dr Crippen (interesting that you chose a serial killer as a pseudonym, but I'm not a Freudian), you seem to have a lot of hatred and contempt for a woman you have never met. As someone who is a volunteer counsellor for women who have been raped and sexually assaulted, I know that one of the most difficult things for women to cope with is other people's attitudes - which are usually to blame the victim, and suggest that she in some way invited the assault. You suggest that a woman can authentically only by raped if she is forcibly dragged from a public place. Though I note that you later withdraw that when challenged, you just say it is "a very real example, and a particularly horrific one", as though partner/acquaintance rape - much more common - was still not quite 'real' rape in your opinion. Being "dragged into bushes" is extremely rare. Most women who are raped do not fight physically, for a variety of reasons, that doesn't mean they haven't been raped.
If a medical professional carries on with a procedure when the patient has explicitly made it clear that they are in pain and want them to stop, that is inexcusable. And legally, yes if that procedure is a vaginal examination it is rape. Rape doesn't not require a 'sexual element', rape is not about sex. But interestingly there have been several incidences when doctors with convictions for sexual offence have been allowed to carry on practising.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1563981/Sex-offender-doctors-'free-to-treat-patients'.html
It is not what you choose to define as 'real rape', but to describe a woman who objects to this as 'hysterical' and a 'coffee shop pseudo feminist' just betrays contempt for women.
Personally if I was going to have a baby, which I'm definitely not, I'd prefer to do it in a hospital. But I was born at home and so were all but one of my siblings. Home birth was once the norm, and hospital births the exception. And women do die in hospital giving birth amazingly enough - some of them as a result of the treatment they receive. My friend (who used to compile neo natal mortality statistics ironically enough) nearly died of septicaemia after giving birth in hospital. Supervised by a doctor, not a midwife.
But the original piece wasn't about home birth, it's about gynaecological procedures being carried out with proper consent. I would like to have seen doctors thinking about the effects of this type of procedure after reading such a piece, not lambasting the woman who wrote it.
I recently went to my GP and said I thought I was menopausal. He told me I was 'too young' to be menopausal and I had reactive depression. I insisted he took a blood test. I was right - my levels of FSH were three times the level needed to be in menopause. Virtually every single woman I know could tell a similar story of some encounter with the medical profession. Doctors aren't always right, just because they've been to medical school. Women do actually know something about their own bodies. Nor are doctors God, something they should bear in mind. A little listening to patients would not go amiss.
Thank goodness you are not my Dr! (If indeed you are one?)
If a dr carries on with ***ANY*** examination without consent they are breeching patients rights and yes I can fully understand what is being said by the patient here.
You have not had to have somebody inserting huge pieces of metal into you as I presume by the applalling manner in which you deal with this and many other topics that you are a male Dr ( if indeed you are a medical dr we will never know!) You have not had to have some idiotic dr say to you that your pain is normal for a woman when they have no idea what the pain is like as they fumble around so say examining you when they seem to just be enjoying themselves as they are perv........
I can fully understand what is being said here by the patients and as ever your rather weird ideas show no compassion or understanding of what the patient goes through.......do not bother moving to anywhere else in the Country as patients all around the country can be thankful if they can avoid you and your horrid attitudes towards patient care which again raises the quesiton of your qualifications and expereince...........who cares just stay away from us as you are the most uncaring dr we are yet to meet and we have met plety of cr** ones! Get a grip Dr C and stop being so stupid.....growing up cannot be that hard can it? You seem to be struggling with it and need to go back to medical school and stop being so horrid and writing a load of nonsense about things which you know nothing about and showing intimate diagrams indicate you are a little perv.........too
I did indeed stop reading your post but not because of its content. It was because of your apparent inability to make the appropriate use of capital letters.
The above comment was for anshii
"At this stage, one worries about Deb’s psychological status. She really does have an obsession, doesn’t she? One wonders how she ever managed to allow herself to be impregnated in the first place."
Maybe that is why she had so many problems ?
"
Dr Crippen (interesting that you chose a serial killer as a pseudonym, but I'm not a Freudian),"
He only killed one person and there is doubt about that.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1566391/US-scientists-Dr-Crippen-was-innocent.html
Consent is a requirement for all medical procedures, but I think it's a bit unfair to blame doctors because the procedure itself is painful.
If a patient says stop then it is inexcusable to carry on, but many procedures/interventions carry all sorts of risks both during and after they have been performed. Surely it's unfair to lambast doctors who are genuinely acting in the patients best interest (leaving aside a minority of dubious characters).
I assume the skilled consultant mentioned in the main post did not acquire such advanced skills overnight, and it may be that other patients also suffered earlier in the consultants career ?
Another problem may have been the inability to "stop" straight away.
There are procedures that take a short while to stop such as colonoscopy....it hurts and patient asks to stop, it takes a little while to pull the scope out gently.
Arterial lines, when the guidewire is in pulling it straight out to stop the pain is not really the best option.
Not saying the Dr should carry on but just occasionally immediate stopping is an option.
Another problem may have been the inability to "stop" straight away.
There are procedures that take a short while to stop such as colonoscopy....it hurts and patient asks to stop, it takes a little while to pull the scope out gently.
Arterial lines, when the guidewire is in pulling it straight out to stop the pain is not really the best option.
Not saying the Dr should carry on but just occasionally immediate stopping is an option.
Anonymous at 0728.
A weird messed up creep is how I think you should be described.
This is a medical blog. By describing clinical diagrams as perverted you show yourself to be immature, messed up inside and in need of help.
You know exactly what I'm talking about. Find help.
'they fumble around so say examining you when they seem to just be enjoying themselves as they are perv........'
WTF? Do you have any idea how many peoples' private parts doctors see day in day out? Believe me, any novelty (and it's not even novelty in the first place, more like awkwardness and embarassment at having to ask people you've just met to show you their private bits) soon wears off and it all becomes routine and very clinical and non-emotive in any respect.
Do you honestly think male doctors put themselves through what is arguably the most arduous speciality training (obs and gynae), involving years and years of sleepless nights, extreme stress and no social life, JUST so that they can look at your genitals and have a 'perv'?
You ridiculous person.
"Dr" Crippen, you are a pompous, arrogant, moron with your head up your own anus.
Not only do you utterly miss the point that these women had terrible experiences which left them feeling utterly violated and - since you either don't get it, or don't see women patients as human - CAUSED THEM SEVERE PAIN - you obfuscate this by snarking over the fact that, shock, since Debs is not a qualified doctor, she does not necessarily know as much about medicine as you.
Is that medical term correct? No doubt you will insist that it would actually be up your rectum. Whatever.
So Debs didn't know the technical terms - as she is not a doctor, why should she? So what if she said her uterus is tilted, gets the point across in a way anyone can understand in 2 seconds, rather than the mini lecture you presented.
And just because the procedure takes longer than a smear does not mean it should be painful, nor that it is not essentially the same.
I'm glad you made yourself feel big and clever. Before you insult *my* intelligence, I have a Masters and 1st class degree from respected universities. I am not, however, so pathetically insecure that I need to shove my intelligence in others' faces.
You have no understanding WHATSOEVER of rape if you think it is being dragged into the bushes etc...please do some reading and inform yourself before you spill your ignorant bile over the Internet again. Rape Crisis has a good website.
You stupid wanker.
I never censor comments, however off the wall, but I usually do not reply to the offensive, troll brigade. However, ignoring the gratuitous abuse, there are a couple of points that need a reply:
"Dr" Crippen, you are a pompous, arrogant, moron with your head up your own anus. Not only do you utterly miss the point that these women had terrible experiences which left them feeling utterly violated and - since you either don't get it, or don't see women patients as human - CAUSED THEM SEVERE PAIN –
I did not in anyway gloss over the point that both these women had very unpleasant experiences (though I don’t believe all the details in Amity’s post). I do not believe that either of them were “utterly violated” in the way the real rape victims are violated
you obfuscate this by snarking over the fact that, shock, since Debs is not a qualified doctor, she does not necessarily know as much about medicine as you. Is that medical term correct? No doubt you will insist that it would actually be up your rectum. Whatever. So Debs didn't know the technical terms - as she is not a doctor, why should she? So what if she said her uterus is tilted, gets the point across in a way anyone can understand in 2 seconds, rather than the mini lecture you presented. And just because the procedure takes longer than a smear does not mean it should be painful, nor that it is not essentially the same.
It was Debs who started pontificating on medical matters as a way of criticising the doctor who was performing the HSP. It was Debs who said an HSP should not take longer than a smear. That is simply not true. It is wrong. And the non-medical people reading her post need to know the truth. She is exaggerating her claim and the exaggeration is based on ignorance.
I'm glad you made yourself feel big and clever. Before you insult *my* intelligence, I have a Masters and 1st class degree from respected universities. I am not, however, so pathetically insecure that I need to shove my intelligence in others' faces. You have no understanding WHATSOEVER of rape if you think it is being dragged into the bushes etc...please do some reading and inform yourself before you spill your ignorant bile over the Internet again. Rape Crisis has a good website. You stupid wanker.
I gave the example of being dragged into the bushes because I had a teenage girl to whom that happened fairly recently, and who has needed a great deal of support. It is a particularly horrifying kind of rape. Of course it is not an exhaustive definition of rape, and I never meant it to be.
Debs and Amity demean real rape victims. I have (sadly) seen a considerable number of rape victims, far more in all likelihood than you, Debs and Amity. They all require support and I provide that. You should be aware that a lot of normal women who have been raped will not go to some of the well advertised “rape crisis centres” because they cannot cope with militant, “right-on”, pseudo-feminist wimmin like Debs and Amity.
And oddly, and you will start bleeding out of your ears when I say this, some female rape victims prefer to be counselled by a male. Counter-intuitive, I know, but it is true. I have discussed it with some of them; part of the reason is that they find people like you too threatening; part of it may be that it is reassuring to talk to a normal male who is not exploitative.
I would be interest to hear some views on that if anyone can manage it without indulging in another triage of gratuitous abuse.
John
I wonder if Debs says her uterus is tilted making procedures more difficult, because this is what she has wrongly been told in the past. I had a very difficult smear a few years ago where the nurse had graet difficulties doing the smear and got me into various positions to try and do it. She told me she was having difficulty because my uterus is tilted. I went home and relayed this to my sister-in-law who is a nurse, and she promptly told me this was rubbish. However Debs may have had a similar experience.
Ruth
Honest, guv, all uteruses (uteri??) are tilted.
Difficulty with smears is usually due to difficulty in locating the cervix. I know, I know, its at the top of the vagina, but sometimes it is hard to find. that does not mean the doctor or nurse is incompetent.
John
I think the point Ruth was making is that it can be very easy for someone having difficulty carry out any medical procedure, to blind the patient as it were with a long word to explain it. I;m not saying they are trying to cover up for incompetence, merely that saying the cause of Ruth's difficulty was because of a tilted uterus just might, at the end of a busy or stressful day, have seemed easier than either making up an explanation or explaining any real difficulty
Just a quick note to say that I have worked as a rape and sexual abuse councillor for ten years. Both in a counselling capacity and as chairperson for a small charity linked to social services and psychiatric services. In my experience, the vast majority of female survivors insist on a female counsellor, as do many male survivors. Moreover, I am a feminist and neither my team nor I work in a “right on” (whatever this is supposed to mean) manner but in the BAC highly professional and skilled way demanded by this area of work.
I would agree with you Ann, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that some women don't want to access some services as they think it is run by hard line loony feminists.
As a feminist myself, I find many younger women have a view of feminism and associated organisations that is nowhere near the reality. I am sure much of this comes from the tabloid press and the publicity given to a few extreme examples of feminism.
Ok so you don't believe Amity's piece, that's your call. But to say that it demeans all women who have been raped is nonsense. For someone who professes to counsel many rape victims you show a marked lack of empathy with women and female patients.
Also "armchair feminists?", "pseudo-feminists" are you now also an expert in feminism? How dare you denigrate other women and men for choosing to call themselves feminists! Since you are clearly not- perhaps you should read around the subject instead of mocking and deriding those femnists who call attention to women's issues.
Prior to 1991 it was legal for a man to rape his wife. Indeed the concept that a woman could refuse consent to sex with her husband was considered stupid and "radically feminist". Prior to Harold Shipman it was thought fairly inconceivable that a maverick doctor could be harming his patients. These things do happen and not in a vacuum.
I for one am glad to work in a profession that questions itself and its competence at regular intervals. Doctors are Not Gods, we do not always know what is in the patients best interests. Five years at medical school do not make you into a empathetic and considerate human being.
I think your whole treatment of this situation has been in bad taste. This isn't a tactic to promote home births, it isn't the feminists revenge. It is an exercise to draw attention to the callous and sometimes horrific treatment of vulnerable and frightened women at the hands of "professionals". You could have used this as an opportunity to condemn those who violate the patient/doctor trust and treat women especially, in such a demeaning and disrespectful manner, instead you indulge in serious victim blaming and belitting of the women writers.
The whole thing stinks as far as I'm concerned.
Time for some humility, John.
P.s I'm doubly sad-- I love this blog, but this is an all time low.
Er, John.. "Difficulty with smears is usually due to difficulty in locating the cervix. I know, I know, its at the top of the vagina, but sometimes it is hard to find. that does not mean the doctor or nurse is incompetent.
"
Wow. Terrifying stuff there John *crosses legs*
1) The position of the cervix is cyclical
2) Many are not 'at the top of the vaginal canal', but in the vaginal wall, off to the side.
Thanks Shea, anonymous 13th 6.18pm, katy newton, jayann, anshii, polly styrene, and others for putting my thoughts into much better words than I could manage after reading the blog. The lack of empathy shown is incredible from a doctor who claims to counsel rape victims. I was so revolted by his attitude I had trouble finishing the article. I just hope he's not my GP.
Others have pointed out that some procedures are difficult to stop straight away. In my experience, when this is the case, I have been warned beforehand and this doesn't seem to be the case with a HSG anyway. It smacks of closing ranks. Nothing can justify a doctor ignoring repeated requests from a patient and failing to stop as soon as is practicable. Completely ignoring this and ranting on about the patents lack of biological knowledge is to completely miss the point.
the a&e charge nurse said...
"Consent is a requirement for all medical procedures, but I think it's a bit unfair to blame doctors because the procedure itself is painful".
I was wondering about that - it sounds as though the procedure caused pain, which lead to more stress which in turn probably made the procedure even harder for both the doctor and Deb. So Deb withdraws consent, but the doctor does not stop so she feels violated. A simple question. Why does it have to hurt in the first place? Isn't it possible to give analgesia for this type of procedure? Wouldn't that have maybe helped to save this situation form ending up where it did? I'm curious - maybe it's just not possible to give pain relief for this type of procedure.
Dr Crippen said, "No, Debs, you have not ever been raped. If you had, you would not be talking like this."
I have actually been "really raped" as you call it 4 times in my life.
Now, Docter, will you admit that you are wrong to make assumptions about what has or hasn't happened to any woman, and apologise?
Debs
Thanks Shea. I will take the time to answer your points. I hope I don’t make you more angry.
shea said...
Ok so you don't believe Amity's piece, that's your call.
I don’t disbelief that she had a dreadful experience – but I find some of the extreme examples implausible.
“Like thousands of other women, she was violated in the worst possible way when at her most vulnerable. What she had experienced was birth rape, and she would never be the same.”
No. Whatever may or may not happen in hospitals it is not correct to suggest that “thousands” are violated “in the worst possible way”. Compare this story to what happened in Rwanda where gang rape followed by murder was the order of the day. Amity spoils her point by exaggeration.
But to say that it demeans all women who have been raped is nonsense. For someone who professes to counsel many rape victims you show a marked lack of empathy with women and female patients. Also "armchair feminists?", "pseudo-feminists" are you now also an expert in feminism?
No, I am not an “expert” on feminism, but I know quite a bit about it. Please explain exactly how I “show a marked lack of empathy with women and female patients
How dare you denigrate other women and men for choosing to call themselves feminists! Since you are clearly not- perhaps you should read around the subject instead of mocking and deriding those femnists who call attention to women's issues.
I’m afraid that the lunatic fringe of feminists have me in fits of laughter. Sorry.
Prior to 1991 it was legal for a man to rape his wife. Indeed the concept that a woman could refuse consent to sex with her husband was considered stupid and "radically feminist".
Yes, I know a little bit about law, thank you. A lot of the law surrounding women had its origins in the Victorian time - a study of the law surrounding the rights of property ownership will make you similarly angry. I agree entirely that it was outrageous, and needed changing.
Prior to Harold Shipman it was thought fairly inconceivable that a maverick doctor could be harming his patients. These things do happen and not in a vacuum.
It’s complicated than that. We should just thank God that Shipman was not an airline pilot. The problem was that there was no mechanism (still isn’t) to audit and catch Shipman early on. What happened though was more to do with the fact that he was a dangerous psychopath than a doctor. I don’t recall that, since Fred West, there has been an outcry against patio builders. Why is that?
I for one am glad to work in a profession that questions itself and its competence at regular intervals. Doctors are Not Gods, we do not always know what is in the patients best interests.
I agree.
Five years at medical school do not make you into a empathetic and considerate human being.
I agree with that too. I actually also believe most who go into medicine, or nursing, are caring empathetic people or they would not be doing it in the first place. But not all. There was precious little attempt to address this problem when I was at medical school and I do not think much progress has been made. Mind you, can you “teach”empathy?
I think your whole treatment of this situation has been in bad taste.
Why?
This isn't a tactic to promote home births, it isn't the feminists revenge. It is an exercise to draw attention to the callous and sometimes horrific treatment of vulnerable and frightened women at the hands of "professionals".
With respect, you have not read the context of my post. I wrote it because my original post on home births was quoted on a well known female blogger’s site, and she said:-
“For those with the means to foot the bill, an independent midwife can indeed offer something your average, overworked NHS doctor cannot: she has time to build up a rapport with the expectant mother, displays empathy and actually listens rather than bossing around. Without such qualities the lobbying would hardly make an impact. Callousness and overweening arrogance are – alas – not in short supply amongst medical professionals, many of whom have a less considerate bedside manner than Gregory House. Nor would I dismiss the testimonies of women who have suffered appallingly at the hands of obstetricians, as attested to by Amity Reed in her devastating critique Not a happy birthday. Nor is medical rape confined to the maternity suites.”
Furthermore, it seems you did not bother to read Amity’s post to the end. Amity says:
“So how in the world did we get to this point, where scores of women are being treated like slabs of meat on a butcher’s table or cogs in the machinery of a conveyor belt? We believe that western medicine is so advanced and our technology so incredible that we rarely stop to think about the effects they have on biological processes and people themselves. Some things are not meant to be tampered with too much and childbirth may be one of them. While we have been conditioned to believe that hospitals are the safest places to birth babies, studies show that the risks of infection are higher, maternal satisfaction with the experience is lower and maternal and infant mortality rates are the same or worse for low-risk mothers delivering in hospital as for those babies born at home to low-risk mothers”
It was thus the female writers, who put home births into this context, not I. Amity then goes on to spout a load of biased inaccurate nonsense about the dangers of hospital births. So, Shea, you need to take back your statement that “This isn't a tactic to promote home births…” That is EXACTLY how Amity’s post comes over.
You could have used this as an opportunity to condemn those who violate the patient/doctor trust and treat women especially, in such a demeaning and disrespectful manner, instead you indulge in serious victim blaming and belitting of the women writers.
That is simply NOT TRUE. I have written replies to two posts which are both completely OTT and both of which are full of exaggerations, mis-representations of medical practice, and WORST OF ALL show a complete lack of understanding of the horrors of real rape.
Look at some of the stuff that Amity trots out:
“But fingers, hands, suction cups, forceps, needles and scissors… these are the tools of birth rape and they are wielded with as much force and as little consent as if a stranger grabbed a passer-by off the street and tied her up before having his way with her. Women are slapped, told to shut up, stop making noise and a nuisance of themselves, that they deserve this, that they shouldn’t have opened their legs nine months ago if they didn’t want to open them now. They are threatened, intimidated and bullied into submitting to procedures they do not need and interventions they do not want. Some are physically restrained from moving, their legs held open or their stomachs pushed on.”
That is complete claptrap. If something like that was inflicted upon a woman by a midwife or doctor, that midwife or doctor would be prosecuted and struck off. I mentioned above a rape scenario in which a woman is grabbed and pulled into some bushes. I was immediately attacked by the “wimmin” telling me that that was not what rape is about. I should not have given that example. But its OK for Amity to talk of a hospital obstetrics being as if a “stranger grabbed a passerby off the street and tied her up before having his way with her”.
That is offensive, outrageous, hysterical crap. And if you don’t see that, well, you too have lost sight of reality.
Despite Amity’s hyperbole, I was still sympathetic. Had you read my post properly you would have seen the following:
“Read it. It is horrific. Do I believe it in its entirety? No, I do not. But I do believe that Amity's friend had a dreadful experience and that the midwife’s management was disgraceful. I have on numerous occasions seen midwives treat women callously, and my sympathy is thus with the patient. Before you say it, I have also seen doctors behave callously towards women in labour, but not as often as midwives.”
And
“I make no excuse for some of the appalling things that have been done to women in the name of good obstetric care, but this is not rape. The worst obstetrician, or the cruellest and most unsympathetic midwife, may mistreat their patients, but this is not rape. There are far too many Caesarean Sections, but they are not rape. Hospital deliveries may not be as enjoyable experience as home deliveries, but they are not rape."
I have been doing medicine for a long time. I hold no brief for callous midwives, and I have seen a fair few, and far more than Debs and Amity. And I have seen callous obstetricians as well. My general unease about nurse-specialists took root when I was doing obstetrics as a medical student, and grew when I was doing obs as a job. I have enourmous sympathy for women who have been mistreated by these people, and I know that the mistreatment can have devastating consequences. But it is still not rape.
The whole thing stinks as far as I'm concerned.
Time for some humility, John.
It’s time that hysterical women like this had a dose of reality. Debs and Amity are very similar to the people who devalue the Holocaust by using it as a hyperbole to make a point (as in “the hospital was like a concentration camp”). I have no idea what you mean my “time for some humility”. Just another bit of gratuitous bollocks as far as I can seen. Debs and Amity need to spend some time with real rape victims then they would better understand what is going on.
John
dr g said...
Er, John.. "Difficulty with smears is usually due to difficulty in locating the cervix. I know, I know, its at the top of the vagina, but sometimes it is hard to find. that does not mean the doctor or nurse is incompetent.
"
Wow. Terrifying stuff there John *crosses legs*
1) The position of the cervix is cyclical
2) Many are not 'at the top of the vaginal canal', but in the vaginal wall, off to the side.
Wednesday, May 14, 2008 4:03:00 PM
++++
Oh Ha! Ha! Dr G. I'll send your grannie some eggs.
But no, fair point.
It's a phrase dating back to when I was a medical student at Guys trying to do my first smear (yes, before the wimmin start, the patient did know I was a student and had been consented), and the cervix did not pop into site when I opened the speculum, and after ineffectually turning it a little, and when I was blushing, and sweating and feeling uncomfortable, I said to the supervising registrar, "I can't find he cervix" - he just smiled at me and said. "Try the top of the vagina, old boy" and walked out.
I can laugh now
John
I'm part of a group in Canada and the U.S. who are working to make sure physicians like you are the last of your kind. We are academic physicians, medical researchers and medical consumers, both female and male. Some of us have had similar experiences to Debs, all of us have heard of such.
Laugh while you can.
"No, Debs, you have not ever been raped. If you had, you would not be talking like this."
If someone inserts ANYTHING into a woman's vagina without her permission, or continues to penetrate her after she has withdrawn consent, that person - male or female - is committing a form of rape. It is also not for you to say whether or not a woman who had been raped would "be talking like this". Women respond to being raped in various ways. There is no one way to respond to being raped or physically violated in any other fashion.
If Debs said she was raped, then she was raped. End of story.
That is complete claptrap. If something like that was inflicted upon a woman by a midwife or doctor, that midwife or doctor would be prosecuted and struck off.
If you believe that, you'll believe anything. I'm sure she didn't mean this all happened to one woman during one birth. I can easily believe that each of these are true experiences even with my limited experience of the medical profession.
Doctor Crippen, did you deliberately ignore my comment?(May 14th 4:36pm)
In your post you stated that I have never been raped and if I had I would not speak like that.
I told you I have been raped a total of 4 times, not including the "medical rape", and asked for an apology for your extremely arrogant assumption.
Still waiting...
Debs
"But Kathy, whatever happened in the hospital XRay department, awful though it may have been, was nothing like rape. Was nothing like being pounced on in the park and being pulled into the bushes."
Acts of rape are not always overtly violent. It is very possible to rape a woman without "pouncing on her and pulling her in the bushes". Your callousness and ignorance concerning the reality of sexual assault and women's experience regarding such experiences is in a word, horrifying. It is, however, not at all surprising. Saying that Debs in undermining "real rape victims" is a common tactic used by rape apologists to deny women's experiences, and to quite often relieve themselves of responsibility for their guilt in committing an act of rape which they themselves do not wish to admit was in fact rape.
"I'm part of a group in Canada and the U.S. who are working to make sure physicians like you are the last of your kind. We are academic physicians, medical researchers and medical consumers, both female and male."
Ooooh...! Do you have a cool name for your team? And costumes? You must have costumes!
Grow up, and stick to the day jobs.
More actual doctors doing real doctoring, and less progressive activist fools smugly congratulating each other over a latte on how they bullied someone to change a word on a poster, and the world would already be a better place...
Ann:
"Just a quick note to say that I have worked as a rape and sexual abuse councillor for ten years. Both in a counselling capacity and as chairperson for a small charity linked to social services and psychiatric services. In my experience, the vast majority of female survivors insist on a female counsellor, as do many male survivors."
Does it occur to you that most people would expect rape sufferer support services to be staffed largely by women? And that perhaps any who would prefer to talk to a man would perhaps therefore not seek those services? I have no idea whether the claim in the post is true or not, I just think you're using flawed logic.
----
Debs:
"I have actually been "really raped" as you call it 4 times in my life."
Sorry for the long quote, but I really think it needs reading again, amongst all this enmity.
"I am repeatedly struck by the high level of self-reported childhood sexual abuse and rape in homebirth advocates. I put in the words "rape survivor homebirth" into Google and found 15 separate instance of phrases like "since I am a survivor of rape, I wanted a homebirth" or "as a survivor of rape I knew that the way my OB treated me what just like rape". There definitely seems to be a notable association of these phenomena: a history of previous sexual assault, a bad childbirth experience, and PTSD. Here's my question:
Why is there such a ferocious insistence that it was the childbirth experience that caused the PTSD and not the previous sexual assault?
There seems to be a large group of women who report being sexually assaulted in some way, and they are adamant in their insistence that the assault did not have serious psychological repercussions. They were fine until they had a baby. The psychological issues became apparent then and, therefore, it must have been the doctor's fault.
What is going on here? No matter what the doctor did, it could not begin to compare to the original assault. I am almost forcibly struck by the level of anger toward the doctors. Yet there is a curious lack of emotion toward the original assailant. The level of anger directed toward the doctor seems startlingly high, and the level of anger toward the assailant seems curiously low.
It feels like there is a psychological need to blame the doctor INSTEAD of the original attacker. Why should that be?"
-----
In response to the final question the post ends with, I'll hazard my view: Rape sufferers are presumably powerless at the time of the attack - whether that be for physical, mental, emotional, or other reasons. Rape sufferers often fail to see any justice after what happened to them. Rape sufferers often block out what has happened to them. Rape sufferers are often (I know, not always) pre or during the usual childbearing years.
An unpleasant obstetric experience could clearly trigger sensations (emotional, physical) of the rape, and the person is now older, and with age usually comes more of a feeling of control, stemming from adult independence. The sufferer is not powerless this time, and the urge for justice is still unfulfilled.
It is easy to see how these sensations could be attached to the unpleasant obstetric experience rather than the rape itself. This could be even more expected if the sufferer has blocked out the rape, burying it behind psychological barriers. Equally so in the scenario that the sufferer believes that they have "dealt with it", but have done so inadequately, albeit on a subconscious level. The recent experience remains vivid.
I'm minded to believe that 'birth rape' or 'obstetric rape' is not rape, but that it may instead be a genuine psychological aberration. I don't mean that in any disparaging sense whatsoever.
So, Dr C, I think I'm in agreement with your conclusions, but I'm not in agreement with your hostile stance.
Sorry for the mammoth post.
"No, Debs, you have not ever been raped. If you had, you would not be talking like this."
Attitudes like this, and the self deification that I see going on in here is a good reason why many utterly distrust the medical profession.
I was lied to during labor - third stage, told I was bleeding out and had to have that shot of pitocin or I'd die.
Both medical records, and the word of the resident who handled first and second stage of labor contradict the words of the Attending Physician. But hey - I'm just one of those Wimmin who knows nothing right?
Oh and Dr. Crippen - please give thought to your own countries laws that state what Rape is defined as. I think you'll find your personal definition is to narrow.
Your comment that rape is defined as being 'pounced on in the park and being pulled into the bushes' is immature. For a professional, and adult person it is alarming. Rape comes in many guises and doesn't necessarily involve violence. The question should be asked: are you fit to be a doctor?
NHS pen pusher
"Does it occur to you that most people would expect rape sufferer support services to be staffed largely by women? And that perhaps any who would prefer to talk to a man would perhaps therefore not seek those services? I have no idea whether the claim in the post is true or not, I just think you're using flawed logic."
Both male and female counsellors staff our agency. When/if the client decides to embark with counselling they are asked whether they want a male or female counsellor. Quite simple really and I do not see any flawed logic.
As I said *in my experience* most survivors (including male) ask for a female counsellor. I am not offering any analysis surrounding this - just my experience of ten years working in this setting. Moreover, Dr. C. does not offer therapeutic counselling but “support” which is entirely different.
Ann
I don't doubt that you have both male & female counsellors. However, the important point is the perception that people might have.
Doctor Crippen, did you deliberately ignore my comment?(May 14th 4:36pm)In your post you stated that I have never been raped and if I had I would not speak like that.I told you I have been raped a total of 4 times, not including the "medical rape", and asked for an apology for your extremely arrogant assumption.Still waiting...Debs
+++++
Hi Debs,
No, I did see it but, frankly, was wondering what to say about it. I am sorry to hear you have been raped 4 times. That is cruelly and astonishingly unlucky.
You seem therefore to fall into the category so well described by the woman who said:
“I was a victim of rape at 14years old, a virgin. I had a hospital delivery and specifically said no epidural for baby no.1. I had an epidural (against my wishes) during transition. When being on my back and numb from the waist down it gave me flashbacks to the rape.They call it body memory. It was horrendous, so bad that my partner left me a month after my son was born. He couldn’t handle my PTSD. I had no anger towards the doctor, only myself. Of course I was angry towards the perpetrator who raped me as a teenager but I just didn’t expect it to come flooding back to me when giving birth. I had no control over this. It just happened. Completely out of the blue.
I believe that many survivors of abuse and rape are reminded of it by feeling out of control. This is what labour can do. For me it was being numbed from the waist down and flat on my back (this is how as a child I disassociated myself from the experience, by numbing and removing myself from my body).”
I am very sympathetic. Very. But that still does not license you to abuse half the medical profession. You unpleasant experience having an HSP of course probably triggered all sorts of memories. But that still does not mean that having an HSP is akin to being raped. It isn’t.
John
Hello. Is this the website with the rape bandwagon?
NHS Pen Pusher
"I don't doubt that you have both male & female counsellors. However, the important point is the perception that people might have"
Our agency is situated in a big regional psychiatric hospital so I doubt they would have any different perceptions than what they would have for the rest of the NHS.
My point is that clients are *asked* what sex counsellor they want and the majority ask for female. Including male clients.
So, Dr C, I think I'm in agreement with your conclusions, but I'm not in agreement with your hostile stance.Sorry for the mammoth post.
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Hi NHS PEN PUSHER
These women show huge, exaggerated, inappropriate hostility to the medical profession. Viz:
"But fingers, hands, suction cups, forceps, needles and scissors… these are the tools of birth rape and they are wielded with as much force and as little consent as if a stranger grabbed a passer-by off the street and tied her up before having his way with her. Women are slapped, told to shut up, stop making noise and a nuisance of themselves, that they deserve this, that they shouldn’t have opened their legs nine months ago if they didn’t want to open them now. They are threatened, intimidated and bullied into submitting to procedures they do not need and interventions they do not want. Some are physically restrained from moving, their legs held open or their stomachs pushed on.
More and more women are coming forward and sharing their stories but it’s still a tiny proportion of those who have been assaulted. Even more so than ‘regular’ rape victims, these women feel they won’t be believed and will be ridiculed. Going up against a rapist is scary enough, but when your rapist is a well-respected doctor or matronly midwife at an NHS hospital run by the British government, the odds of a successful complaint or criminal prosecution seem remote and insignificant.
So how in the world did we get to this point, where scores of women are being treated like slabs of meat on a butcher’s table or cogs in the machinery of a conveyor belt? We believe that western medicine is so advanced and our technology so incredible that we rarely stop to think about the effects they have on biological processes and people themselves. Some things are not meant to be tampered with too much and childbirth may be one of them. While we have been conditioned to believe that hospitals are the safest places to birth babies, studies show that the risks of infection are higher, maternal satisfaction with the experience is lower and maternal and infant mortality rates are the same or worse for low-risk mothers delivering in hospital as for those babies born at home to low-risk mothers."
Proposition:
The majority of obstetricians and midwives are decent, caring people doing thier job as best they can.
I believe that, which is why Amity's post makes me hostile.
Do you believe it, or do you, like Amity, believe that most obstetricians are sexual abusive, sadistic perverts, because that is what she is saying.
John
Your comment that rape is defined as being 'pounced on in the park and being pulled into the bushes' is immature. For a professional, and adult person it is alarming. Rape comes in many guises and doesn't necessarily involve violence. The question should be asked: are you fit to be a doctor?
+++++
I did not say that. I merely gave that as an EXAMPLE of one kind of violent rape. It was not an exhaustive definition. Far from it.
What do you think of Amity's definition. She says:
"But fingers, hands, suction cups, forceps, needles and scissors… these are the tools of birth rape and they are wielded with as much force and as little consent as if a stranger grabbed a passer-by off the street and tied her up before having his way with her."
I suppose she's allowed to give that example because she is a "feminist".
You people need to get some consistency in your arguments.
John
Ah, another assumption. You're good at those aren't you, Dr Crippen?
This time you assume that one or all of the rapes I experienced happened before the "medical rape", and thus I was merely being reminded of them by the experience.
Oh well, you just remain comfortable in your little world full of stereotypes and misogynistic attitudes. I have work to do. See ya
Debs
Ah, another assumption. You're good at those aren't you, Dr Crippen?This time you assume that one or all of the rapes I experienced happened before the "medical rape", and thus I was merely being reminded of them by the experience.Oh well, you just remain comfortable in your little world full of stereotypes and misogynistic attitudes. I have work to do. See yaDebs
++++
Debs, that is childish and rather typical of your level of debate.
But yes, you are right, I did assume that one or more of the rapes happened before your HSP.
You have been astonishingly unlucky to be raped 4 times.
Still doesn't justify your remarks about medical care.
John
Hi John,
"I believe that, which is why Amity's post makes me hostile."
An understandable reaction itself, but what I'm suggesting is that some of these cases may be the result of genuinely misplaced sensations and sentiments. Not malice, ignorance, or anything to do with feminism. Genuine feelings of having been atrociously violated, erroneously attached to the wrong event.
I have to say that I'm completely appalled.
According to the legal definition, which has been repeatedly stated, yet I don't see an acknowledgment of that fact anywhere, here: Vaginal, anal, or oral PENETRATION WITH ANY OBJECT without consent, or continued penetration after withdrawal of consent constitutes rape. Period, end of story. You don't get to qualify that this thing or the other "doesn't qualify" as rape.
Medical treatment without consent constitutes assault. Continued treatment after withdrawal of consent, constitutes assault.
No matter any way you slice the cake, the definition of these experiences "qualifies" as a violation of these women's bodies and rights.
And, make up your frickin' mind. Either these "wimmin" KNOW what sexual assault feels like, or they don't. First, you say that Debs can't possibly "really" have been raped, THEN you say that anyone who claims to have been raped while undergoing a medical procedure is really just re-living a past sexual assault and is just blaming it on the doctor/midwife, when it's really not the doc's fault at all...
Please.
Oh, and not to mention your assertion that if doctors or midwives were REALLY assaulting all those patients, then they'd be "stricken off", well, see, there's a problem with that. FIRST, the victim has to recognise that there IS some sort of recourse-- which all to often, they do not. SECOND, the victim has to be HEARD. THIRD, they have to be BELIEVED. Which means when they come forward to say they've been violated, everyone standing around doesn't do something like say, "That doesn't qualify as rape! You're a pseudo-feminist!"
Go write about something you actually KNOW about.
Dr C,
Good observational skills. Amity's definition does in fact echo your own. Perhaps you are both of the same emotional maturity. 'Allowed' by whom? Wimmin?
You wrote 'Debs and Amity need to spend some time with real rape victims'. This written without evidence and based solely on your own moral agenda?
"No, I did see it but, frankly, was wondering what to say about it. I am sorry to hear you have been raped 4 times. That is cruelly and astonishingly unlucky."
It's actually quite common for women to experience repeated rapes and various other sexual assaults in their lifetime, particularly if the assailants are intimate partners or male relatives. You seem to be quite naive as to the reality of male sexual violence against women. Again, not at all surprising...but always terribly depressing.
"Debs, that is childish and rather typical of your level of debate."
It isn't childish to not want to continue to be subjugated to a man who wishes to deny that you have in fact been traumatized. That is in fact quite a healthy and normal response given the circumstances.
The quote from Amity's article,
"But fingers, hands, suction cups, forceps, needles and scissors… these are the tools of birth rape and they are wielded with as much force and as little consent as if a stranger grabbed a passer-by off the street and tied her up before having his way with her."
is "allowable" because she is saying that just because these things do not constitute the "popular" notion of rape, which you obviously share, does not mean that they are not rape.
Furthermore, Amity does NOT say that "ALL" obstetricians/midwives are guilty of "birthrape". What she says is that:
"More and more women are coming forward and sharing their stories but it’s still a tiny proportion of those who have been assaulted. Even more so than ‘regular’ rape victims, these women feel they won’t be believed and will be ridiculed. Going up against a rapist is scary enough, but when your rapist is a well-respected doctor or matronly midwife at an NHS hospital run by the British government, the odds of a successful complaint or criminal prosecution seem remote and insignificant."
(Italics mine)Which, oddly enough, precisely fits the definition of what you're doing.
Your position that most OBs and nurses and midwives are caring people who want what's best doesn't necessarily exclude these things from happening, even on a large scale.
Just because you don't like the idea that it is, indeed, possible, for this to happen-- repeatedly and often-- you dismiss it.
The thing is, most of us who have actually experienced this type of trauma in the delivery room, for example, understand that the problem isn't that the OB or the midwife is actually hostile to us. The problem is that the OB FORGETS. He or she believes they know better and are more qualified to judge what we should or shouldn't be consenting to. They forget that CONSENT is required, that the womb they are extracting a baby from actually has a PERSON attached to it. They forget that s is NOT THEIR CHOICE as to what goes on with the patients in their care.
And, because they just "want what's best", they REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE that when do these things, they violate a patient's rights. They hide behind the "standard of care", which says that they SHOULD be doing these things, despite the fact that a good 75-90% of what is considered the "standard of care" was NEVER EVALUATED for safety or efficacy before being embraced as the standard of care. (I.e. episiotomy, epidural, lithotomy position, routine IV's, no eating or drinking during labor, EFM, etc.)
So fully do these OBs embrace the position that they know what's best, they deny that anything else is possible or desirable, that a woman might actually have a valid reason for saying "I DO NOT CONSENT" to something which in the OB's paradigm, is a "necessity" for a "safe birth".
Aye, there's the rub.
And so they do what they want, not out of hostility, but ignorance, forgetfulness, and the desire to "save" the mom and the baby.
Did you by any chance that doctors also are known to perform pelvic exams on women who have not consented while the women are unconscious? That, btw, would also be a form of rape...
http://womenshealthnews.blogspot.com/2007/03/pelvic-exams-and-informed-consent.html
"The New England Journal of Medicine has a perspective piece by Adam Wolfberg in the current issue (1), "The Patient as Ally — Learning the Pelvic Examination," which addresses the issue of teaching pelvic examinations to medical students. It provides some telling information about the history of how this exam was taught, stating, "in contrast to ambulatory care, the gynecologic operating room has historically provided medical students with an opportunity to learn this exam: they could perform it in anesthetized patients immediately before surgery." This practice became extraordinarily controversial when it became more widely known that pelvic exams were often performed on anesthesized surgical patients without their knowledge or consent, as a teaching tool rather than for medical care."
Here's the link again:
Pelvic Exams and Informed Consent
Did you by any chance that doctors also are known to perform pelvic exams on women who have not consented while the women are unconscious? That, btw, would also be a form of rape...http://womenshealthnews.blogspot.com/2007/03/pelvic-exams-and-informed-consent.html"The New England Journal of Medicine has a perspective piece by Adam Wolfberg in the current issue (1), "The Patient as Ally — Learning the Pelvic Examination," which addresses the issue of teaching pelvic examinations to medical students. It provides some telling information about the history of how this exam was taught, stating, "in contrast to ambulatory care, the gynecologic operating room has historically provided medical students with an opportunity to learn this exam: they could perform it in anesthetized patients immediately before surgery." This practice became extraordinarily controversial when it became more widely known that pelvic exams were often performed on anesthesized surgical patients without their knowledge or consent, as a teaching tool rather than for medical care."
++++++
Hi Faith
Yes, I did know that, and I saw it happen several times when I was a medical student and a gynae SHO
I thought it was appalling.
JOhn
"I thought it was appalling."
Yet somehow I doubt you'd call it rape. Wouldn't want to undermine any good doctors now...
Proposition:
The majority of obstetricians and midwives are decent, caring people doing thier job as best they can.
+++++++++
In my experience, that is completely true.
Also, from experience, I would like to offer a further proposition.
The majority of obstetricians and midwives are hurt by the notion that anything they might do in the course of their work might be felt as akin to rape, In fact, most think the idea is ludicrous. That's partly because of the sexual element - rape is now defined as penile penetration (it used to include penetration with objects, this is now a separate offence "assault by penetration" ).
But central to the law on rape is the concept of consent, and this has recently been clarified by the Home Office
"A person consents if he or she agrees by choice and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice....Giving consent is active, not passive. It means freely choosing to say "yes""
This definition is, of course, in the context of the Sexual Offences Act. But how different is the concept in the health service?! In the health service, we have even changed the active "to consent" into the passive "to be consented". (As in "Has she been consented?" rather than "Have you gained her consent" - an assault on the English language almost as heinous as the verb "to birth").
I do think a little "No means no, especially in the labour ward" awareness-raising campaign would be warranted, and the issues of consent and penetration cry out for a comparative study of sexual offences law, and law on consent as it applies to medical & midwifery practice.
I say that in all seriousness, having witnessed a few VEs done without consent, or in which consent was withdrawn, coerced or wrongly assumed. Even being in the vicinity is a brutalizing experience, and notwithstanding my position as a lowly student, I have vowed not to be a complete and utter coward in future. I hope I have the spine to live up to it.
Part of the problem lies in the language used. I've heard lots of forms of consent along the lines of "We're going to do x, y and z, okay?" which is really no sort of consent at all, and yet seems totally acceptable practice to many people. If that's acceptable practice, then it's not suprising that only-slightly-less-than acceptable practice quickly degenerates into coercion, assumed consent and ignoring women's refusals.
But basically, the bottom line is, if you have your fingers in someone's vagina and she asks you to remove them (or brings her knees together sharply, or scoots up the delivery bed away from you) - you should stop the examination, allow the woman to regain her composure, explain again the purpose of the examination (I'm assuming that was done the first time round - though it isn't always) and reassure her that, although it may be uncomfortable or even painful, the investigation is important to her/her baby and you will do your best not to hurt her. None of that has to be long-winded or verbose - you can develop a "patter" for it, just as easily as you can fall in to the no-real-consent-at-all patter of:
"I just need you to....
"I'd like you to...
"We need to...
"We have to....
Which one hears day in, day out on the labour ward.
The best advice I was ever given on doing VEs was to tell the woman that I would stop if she asked, and mean it.
The BMA have a discussion about this. Go to the site and put pelvic exams under anaesthetic in the search engine. Be prepared to be shocked by some of the answers.
Without consent, P.E.U.A is rape. There is no doubt about that. However the patient does not know that this has happened (rather like 'date rape'). Many students feel terribly uncomfortable about doing it but feel they have no choice but to comply to what the consultant is asking. It's coercion of course.
Hi Faith
Yep. I knew you would come back with that - and I have been thinking about it. When I first saw it happen, I was pretty fresh from my law degree, and I was appalled. I brought it up with several doctors, and they just laughed and said "you have to learn.." or whatever. I don't think they understood the issue.
Was it rape? Inserting two fingers into an unconscious woman's vagina without her knowledge or prior consent? Hard to defend that one.
And yet, and yet.....
Was it rape.
I know I will now get shot down by the wimmin but to me rape connotes a SEXUAL motive, and that is what makes it such an unpleasant crime. The medical students who did the examinations were not doing it for sexual gratification, that is for sure.
I think it was outrageous. But it was not rape.
I did rectal examinations on anaesthetised men waiting for prostate surgery. That was wrong too. Would you call that rape?
John
Sorry, but you have it backwards. Rape is now defined as penetration by any object. It USED to be by a penis only.
I wrote a lengthy comment earlier today but it either got lost in cyberspace or was deleted by the blog's author so instead of trying to rephrase it, I'll just link to my published reply, which you can read by clicking on my name.
NHS Doc, I had anticipated some constructive dialogue on the matter instead of the outright dismissal and name-calling you have already demonstrated, though by the tone of your replies here I hold out little hope.
Amity
I think we get confused by the issue of "sexual" motive. Some rapists (without venturing into the territory of whether penetrating someone's vagina (or rectum) without consent in a medical consent is rape) are motivated by other things than sexual thrills. In the Rwandan situation which you quote above, for example, rape seems to be more like a technique for terrorizing a population than about sexual gratification. Rape within relationships can be part of patterns of abuse and control that also include telling someone how repulsive or ugly they are, for example, and again - the psychological motives behind something like that have to be more complex than simply gaining sexual gratification.
The other question to be asked is whether the intentions of the penetrator matter intensely to the person being penetrated without his or her consent?
Sorry, but you have it backwards. Rape is now defined as penetration by any object. It USED to be by a penis only.
++++++++++
My mistake. I was relying on Home Office sources which are probably out of date.
If that's the case, it makes things still more clear.
amity said...
I wrote a lengthy comment earlier today but it either got lost in cyberspace or was deleted by the blog's author so instead of trying to rephrase it, I'll just link to my published reply, which you can read by clicking on my name.
NHS Doc, I had anticipated some constructive dialogue on the matter instead of the outright dismissal and name-calling you have already demonstrated, though by the tone of your replies here I hold out little hope.
Amity
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Amity, I never, never, delete comments or censor them. Never.
I do not know why your comment did not appear; I do not filter them; all comments go straight on with no input/permission from me.
Please put it on again.
John
"I did rectal examinations on anaesthetised men waiting for prostate surgery. That was wrong too. Would you call that rape?!
Yes, I would. Why should doctors be allowed to stick fingers into unconscious and non consenting human beings?
Amity, I never, never, delete comments or censor them. Never.
I do not know why your comment did not appear; I do not filter them; all comments go straight on with no input/permission from me.
Please put it on again.
John
I'm afraid I have neither the time nor patience to retype the long comment I tried to submit earlier but you can read my thoughts on the matter by clicking the link I mentioned above.
Amity
I'm afraid I have neither the time nor patience to retype the long comment I tried to submit earlier but you can read my thoughts on the matter by clicking the link I mentioned above.
Amity
+++
Fair enough
I will therefore put up your comments so that all can see. I don't normally do that - if you have copyright problems with that, I will take them down
John
As long as you say which site it was published on I don't think it would be a problem.
Amity
A very relevant and thoughtful blogpost here, from the recently feted Dr Dino, http://dinosaurmusings.blogspot.com/2006/10/surgery-and-rape.html
I am assuming that the MD’s commenting on here are not psychiatrists. However, Debs and other women who have suffered from insensitive gynaecological interventions appear to be undergoing psychiatric diagnostic remarks by doctors who are not qualified in psychiatry.
Maybe these coffee shop pseudo-psychiatrists do not understand rape and misogyny…or psychiatry?
I thought I'd mention this as I don't think it's been spotted; if you gave birth before being raped, how are you able to objectively judge that it was the same without viewing the past through the lense of subsequent events? I may be going out on a limb, but I would think that someone either looking back at, or going through, a birth from the position of being a rape victim would be more likely to connect the two than someone who has a difficult birth and never experiences rape in their entire life.
The experience of sexual assault and rape are surprisingly common. Certainly common enough, and stigmatized enough, that you can never safely assume that the woman you are caring for has not been raped or assaulted simply on the basis that she hasn't disclosed that fact to you.
Communication around the consent and the procedure should recognize the possibility that the woman (or indeed man, though not relevant in obstetrics) has experienced an undisclosed (to you) sexual assault or rape. Attention to respect, consent and good communication would benefit everyone - including those with no prior history of assault who nonetheless feel mistreated at the hands of obstetricians and midwives - but especially those who have already been assaulted in the past and find a repeat of the experience particularly harmful.
"If someone inserts ANYTHING into a woman's vagina without her permission, or continues to penetrate her after she has withdrawn consent, that person - male or female - is committing a form of rape."
Whoa! Most people have completely missed a very important point. INTENT must be present. Just as being responsible for the death of a person is not necessarily murder, since murder depends on intent, putting an object into a woman's vagina is not necessarily rape, because rape depends on intent.
Those who complain about "birth rape" have the definition of the crime backwards. It's not a crime because it makes you feel like it's a crime. A death does not become a murder just because the deceased relatives think it feels like a murder. Similarly, the fact that some women like to claim that they feel like they have been victims of rape does not mean that a rape has occured.
These incidents are not rapes, no matter how much these women wish to draw attention to themselves. It is despicable to even suggest that they are rapes. Moreover, a fair amount of research shows that these claims tell us much more about the woman making the claim than about the actual incident. In studies of "birth trauma", independent observers could not tell the difference between the care of women who later claimed that they were traumatized and the care of women who were pleased with their care.
As Dr. Crippen pointed out in his post, many of the women flinging these claims about have been (or believe themselves to have been) victims of previous sexual assault. I would like to suggest that the sequence that leads to these claims of rape is: childhood history of sexual assault, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder aggravated by the sexual connotations of reproduction and birth, birth trauma as a manifestation of PTSD from previous events.
In other words, birth trauma does not cause PTSD. Rather PTSD leads these women to experience birth like their previous sexual assault, even though an outside observer, even a homebirth advocate, would not find the doctors behavior objectionable.
When a former soldier with PTSD reacts violently to those around him in a shopping mall parking lot, believing himself to still be under gun fire, no one actually thinks that the people in the parking lot were shooting at him. Similarly, when a woman with PTSD reacts strongly to a doctor, believing herself to still be in the deeply abhorrent state of being victimized by sexual assault, we should be extremely wary about concluding that the doctor was actually assaulting her or treating her badly.
The bottom line is this: It is not rape unless INTENT is present. The reactions of these women to their birth experiences tells us about the women, not about what happened at the birth. Their perceptions are colored by their past experiences and often do not reflect reality.
I did rectal examinations on anaesthetised men waiting for prostate surgery. That was wrong too. Would you call that rape?
It may not be rape, or more accurately, assault by penetration, but surely it's on a par? The only aspect of assault by penetration that seems to be missing is the sexual element. Is it possible to request the presence of someone from PALS or another independent observer during a procedure? The more I read here, the more I feel like refusing any procedure that involves a general anaesthetic.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/ukpga_20030042_en_2#pt1-pb1-l1g1
In other words, birth trauma does not cause PTSD. Rather PTSD leads these women to experience birth like their previous sexual assault, even though an outside observer, even a homebirth advocate, would not find the doctors behavior objectionable.
Rubbish! I've never suffered abuse, sexual assault or rape but have experienced trauma at the hands of medical professionals who carried on with procedures despite being asked to stop. Luckily they were not as traumatic as those described here, but I can easily believe that these descriptions are accurate, especially after reading about examinations under anaesthetic without consent and seeing the attitudes displayed by medical professionals like you and Crippen.
John and Dr Amy keep trying to make a link between previous rape survivors and those who are raped in hospital by medical professionals, attempting to have us believe that the abuse is all in their head and merely remnants of the fear and hostility they harbor towards their former abuser(s). The problem with this is two-fold. First and foremost, that the majority of women experiencing birth rape have not been previously sexually assaulted. Out of all the women I've come into contact with and spoken to, only a small minority had been assaulted or raped before. There is no direct link between previous sexual abuse and likelihood that they will suffer birth rape in the future.
Secondly, for the women who HAVE been raped or abused before they were assaulted in birth -- have you ever stopped to think that they are not 'transferring' their experience but merely aware of what constitutes rape and so better able to identify and name what happened to them? Many women, like yourselves, would never think to call what happened to them 'rape' because they have been conditioned (again, like yourselves) that rape is only perpetrated with a penis and by someone with a sexual intent. However, rape is NOT about sexuality, it is about control, power and punishment. How else do you explain 80-year-old women and toddlers being raped? Was it because they were just too darn sexy to resist for the rapists? Bollocks. Again, rape is NOT about sex but about control. And everyone knows that women in labour are difficult to control. They are in pain, scared, maybe determined to do things that their care providers don't agree with and so sometimes seen as 'combative' or 'difficult.'
We also know that labour is completely unpredictable, each one unique and the outcome is not easily determined. Doctors, because of the nature of their training, are often uncomfortable with this because it doesn't give them a clear place or a defined role. How are they supposed to 'fix' or 'cure' the woman if she won't stop moving around and lay still for the exam that will tell them what to do next? It seems that many interventions in birth are done just so that the birth attendants can know where THEY stand and what THEIR next move should be, not for any benefit to the patient. Since when did birth become a dangerous condition that it requires constant monitoring and a team of doctors on standby 'just in case'? No wonder women are scared out of their wits when they get to hospital. They're only having babies but are made to feel that they're dying. Maybe if they had more freedom to move around and let things progress naturally instead of being put on a ticking clock counting down the hours until the inevitable cesarean, they wouldn't be so tense and afraid, and perhaps if doctors and midwives would embrace birth as a natural and normal process instead of medicalising it to death and taking away all that makes birth so special and empowering, neither would find themselves on opposite sides of the fence.
"However, rape is NOT about sexuality, it is about control, power and punishment."
Absolutely. It is not, however, about genuine attempts to provide medical care, however inept or inappropriately they may be delivered.
A crime requires mens rea.
I'm so glad I chose A&E as a specialty - although I doubt if many male nurses ever applied for a job on the gynae ward ?
I believe there are a few male midwives, but not very many.
Is medical 'rape' gendered ?
(if we accept the view of some of the commentators here).
Is it predominantly male doctors who are 'raping' women, or are female doctors committing similar crimes (and in similar numbers) ?
And do the same principles apply to men when we think of invasive anal, or genital procedures, such as urethral catheterisation, sigmoidoscopy, digital examination of the rectum, etc, etc.
I assume if many women, or indeed only one women (or man) accuses a doctor of rape then an inevitable consequence will be that intimate examinations (of any kind) will take far longer, not least because lengthy consent forms will need be introduced to exonerate clinicians from subsequent claims of abuse.
As Dr Tuteur highlights above, INTENT is a vital component in all medical behaviour (look at palliative care) and in this sense I have serious reservations about the use of the word 'rape' to describe distressing medical procedures.
Absolutely. It is not, however, about genuine attempts to provide medical care, however inept or inappropriately they may be delivered.
A crime requires mens rea.
A crime can be committed without prior intent to harm but due to ignorance or a bad decision. For example, a drunk who gets behind the wheel of a car didn't MEAN to run over and kill that pedestrian, that was not their intent when they got in the car to drive home, but it was nevertheless a result of their actions. Does that make it any less a crime? Should they be held less responsible because they "didn't mean to cause harm?" They made the decisions that placed them in the position of harming someone else and they cannot point the finger at anyone else but themselves.
Also, one of my main points is that in cases of actual birth rape, not just birth trauma (I have clearly differentiated between the two in my writings) the intent to control WAS there. Birth rape is not about a consented procedure going wrong or causing pain and the patient later deciding it was a bad experience and terming it rape. It is when a procedure is performed WITH NO PRIOR CONSENT or one which is continued after consent is withdrawn. If a woman says yes to a vaginal exam upon her arrival in hospital, it doesn't mean she has given consent to any further exams and she should be asked for consent before each one. If she says no that MUST be respected. If the medical team genuinely believe there is a serious and vital purpose to doing such an exam, they should explain that to the patient in terms they can understand, not just say "Do this or your baby will die," which is a threat meant to coerce. If she says no again, that is her decision. Forcing her legs open and inserting a finger after she has refused consent or if no consent was even requested IS assault, even if the intent was not sexual. It is rape because it is focused on her genitals and is a means of exerting power over her and forcing her to submit to something she does not want or agree to.
Is medical 'rape' gendered ?
(if we accept the view of some of the commentators here).
Is it predominantly male doctors who are 'raping' women, or are female doctors committing similar crimes (and in similar numbers) ?
It is absolutely not gendered. I'd say at least half of the birth rape stories I've been told involved female perpetrators. Again, it is not about sex, it is about the medical professional's POWER and the exertion of that power over those entrusted to their care. I blame the current (very impersonal) medical model for the rise in these incidences. Staff shortages, tight budgets and pressure to 'treat 'em and street 'em' is causing more and more health care professionals to throw the rules out the window and perform procedures without due care and consent from the patients, all in the name of time constraints or following protocol.
I sympathise with what NHS staff go through and the pressures they are under -- it must be immense. Not to mention the lack of resources due to budget cuts. I understand all of that and have compassion for those just trying to do their jobs. However, the utter disregard for patient dignity, autonomy and ultimate authority on what kind of care they receive is NOT excusable, no matter how many staff shortages they're facing or how many hours they've been on shift. Sacrificing someone's right to say No just to make your life easier is not and will never be okay.
Drink driving is a crime of strict liability for public policy reasons.
I contend that in the vast majority of cases the intent is NOT to control, the intent is to heal. It may also be true that the physician erroneously, even unlawfully, exerts control as a means to that ends. It is not right, but neither is it rape.
It strikes me that a large part of the disagreements on this thread are really down to semantics.
It also never ceases to amaze me what a disproportionate amount of importance people attach to their genitals. That comes across as flippant no matter how I write it. It's not intended to be.
Thanks amity - providing patient dignity and autonomy in all spheres of health (but especially when it comes to intimate examinations) seems an unimpeachable position to adopt.
The glossy DoH brochures are full of such aspirations (although the authors of these publications seldom work on the shop floor), and of course NHS staff usually have a much easier life when the gold standard can be offered to patients.
But, a fundamental conflict arises whenever we factor quantity vs quality into service planning.
Take A&E ( yesterday) what would patients prefer;
A gold standard service for 150 patients, accepting that 100 or so would be turned away because they did not appear to have a true emergency, or they did indeed have serious symptoms it was just that they had yet to fully manifest themselves - or a so so service for nearly 300 patients accepting that due to logistical factors, (such as cleaning cubicles, transfering patients to the ward, lunch breaks, etc) not all would be likely to receive ideal standards of dignity, privacy, etc ?
Of course, work pressures cannot ever over ride consent - any doctor (or nurse) who forces a procedure on a patient not only leaves themselves open to charges of serious misconduct but they also damage the entire reputation of the profession as well.
Common sense dictates that if consultations are going to take longer to ensure that patients and clinicians are protected medico-legally, then waiting lists are likely to grow as well because we all know that time (and quality) = money, and the NHS pot just does not have enough to deal with insatiable demand.
At my medical school a specific paragraph had to be written in the notes, read the woman and signed by them and the student before a PV/ speculum was allowed.
I was surprised that only 1 woman refused me (i did a couple of dozen in my o&g attachment).
I was offered PV examinations while the women were UA but refused. Maybe being an older student makes it a lot easier.
I would say though that while i have seen lots of traumatic birth experiences i couldn't say any of them were "rape".
The examples given of women being slapped/ shouted at/ abused i was obviously lucky not to have seen.
In labour if things are going down hill at all the first responsibilty is to the mother with the life of the child a close second. Things are done quickly and forcefully, but all of this is to achieve a good end result for both mother and child.
In many obstetric cases time is of the essence (more so than almost any other speciality) and as such the communication part can be stunted but this is a necessity.
On the other hand the "new" medical teaching focuses on communication to the extent we suffer in our medical knowledge...be happpy the next generation of doctors may all well be better communicators and give more "satisfaction" but we are far less knowledgable.
I just hope postgrad training menas our extra communication skils don't leave us less able to treat you effectivley.
'On the other hand the "new" medical teaching focuses on communication to the extent we suffer in our medical knowledge'. How can speaking differently harm knowledge? How much time does it take? Better to spend a couple of days on good communication courses than be chased through the courts.
I contend that in the vast majority of cases the intent is NOT to control, the intent is to heal.
That may be true in instances other than birth, but if, for example, a woman in labour says she does not want her water broken but the doctor or midwife feels it's taking too long and so reach inside her and do it anyway, how is that 'healing'? Birth is not an illness that needs to be cured, nor is it something that can be timed and made to speed up just for the convenience of those attending. I think this is how many of these abuse cases happen -- the medical team genuinely think they are doing what's best for the patient (or, more likely, "best for the baby") when they are actually ignoring what the women are trying to say to them. If they would just stop and listen to the individual's needs instead of blindly going by 'protocol,' I think a lot of this could be avoided.
amity:
"There is no direct link between previous sexual abuse and likelihood that they will suffer birth rape in the future."
Yes, as a matter of fact, considerable research shows that there is. In addition, there is considerable research that shows that the most important predisposing factor to claims of "birth trauma" or PTSD is a previous history of mental health issues, particularly depression. What is most important is that research shows that claims of "birth rape" and "birth trauma" cannot be confirmed by independent observers. That's because it exists only in the minds of women, NOT in reality.
It is despicable, selfish and entirely self absorbed to use the term "rape" to describe something that is not a rape. We live in a culture where shock is used to market products and where shock is used to make oneself noticed. This has contributed to a degradation of the way we use language that should be reserved for certain specific instances. For example, many groups blithely complain that this or that act is "like a lynching". No, unless someone was lynched, the use of that term is grotesque. In this country a real lynching was often about hanging innocent black men from trees in the middle of the night, just to express a vitriolic form of racism. It demeans the suffering of so many black men and boys to use the term "lynching" in a rhetorical way.
Similarly, rape has a certain specific connotation. If someone wants to say that the way their doctor treated them felt like an assault, fine. However, to describe it as a rape or like a rape, in my judgment, is to appropriate the term for its shock effect. It is demeaning to women who have been victimized by this specific type of violence.
Crying "birth rape" is the worst kind of bid for attention. Rather than blame your reaction on others, you might be better served to enter therapy to find out why you reacted the way you did, and why you feel the need to accuse health professionals of vicious crimes that you know they did not commit.
In addition, there is considerable research that shows that the most important predisposing factor to claims of "birth trauma" or PTSD is a previous history of mental health issues, particularly depression. What is most important is that research shows that claims of "birth rape" and "birth trauma" cannot be confirmed by independent observers. That's because it exists only in the minds of women, NOT in reality.
If you say that birth rape doesn't exist (and it certainly isn't the widely-accepted term), how in the world has there been a study done on it? How many times do I have to say that birth trauma (where a woman experiences trauma during her birth but not necessarily where an assault took place) is NOT the same thing as birth rape? I really don't know how many more times I have to repeat it for it to sink in.
I am utterly appalled that you would say that rape is only in the minds of women and not based in reality. This just proves my point that medical types such as yourself are so arrogant and so sure that you are right that you absolutely REFUSE to empathise or identify with people who interpret their medical 'care' as traumatic and, yes, even as crimes in some cases. The fact that you won't even TRY to understand or have an open-minded dialogue is further evidence that med schools across the world are churning out little robots who do as they're told and trained, not as caring professionals who take each case on an individual basis and provide personable, compassionate care.
It is despicable, selfish and entirely self absorbed to use the term "rape" to describe something that is not a rape. We live in a culture where shock is used to market products and where shock is used to make oneself noticed. This has contributed to a degradation of the way we use language that should be reserved for certain specific instances
And I find it despicable, selfish and entirely self-absorbed that you would deign to consider yourself an authority on rape and what constitutes that crime. The law specifically states that rape can be committed with an object as well as with a body part and that the intent does not have to be sexual, but merely about force and whether consent was given. If a doctor sticks her hand up a woman's vagina after the woman said No, what would you call that? You can pretty it up and call it merely 'trauma' or a 'bad experience' all you want but the fact remains that it IS rape. End of story. If you couldn't do it to a woman on the street without being arrested, why should you be able to do it to a woman under your care? Doctors do NOT have the ultimate authority on what procedures will be performed, the patient does.
I have tried to have an open discourse about this but it is apparent that your mindset will continue to be that of a rape-apologist and denier. If we can't even agree that forcing something into a woman's vagina against her will is rape then I'm afraid we have no parameters for further discussion and I will not continue to argue with you. I pray that the birthing women you treat are aware of your stance on forced procedures and run far, far away before they find themselves in the same position.
...and we're back to Gareth's comment about Godwin's Law.
amity:
"If you say that birth rape doesn't exist (and it certainly isn't the widely-accepted term), how in the world has there been a study done on it?"
The claim of "birth rape" is just one of many possible pathological responses to birth. These pathological responses have been studied:
Birth trauma: in the eye of the beholder,Beck CT, Nurs Res. 2004 Jan-Feb;53(1):28-35.
BACKGROUND: The reported prevalence of posttraumatic stress disorder after childbirth ranges from 1.5% to 6%. OBJECTIVE: To describe the meaning of women's birth trauma experiences. METHODS: ... The purposive sample consisted of 40 mothers: 23 in New Zealand, 8 in the United States, 6 in Australia, and 3 in the United Kingdom. Each woman was asked to describe the experience of her traumatic birth ... Colaizzi's method was used to analyze the 40 mothers' stories. RESULTS: Four themes emerged that described the essence of women's experiences of birth trauma: To care for me: Was that too much too ask? To communicate with me: Why was this neglected? To provide safe care: You betrayed my trust and I felt powerless, and The end justifies the means: At whose expense? At what price? CONCLUSIONS: Birth trauma lies in the eye of the beholder. Mothers perceived that their traumatic births often were viewed as routine by clinicians.
The longitudinal course of post-traumatic stress after childbirth, Söderquist J, Wijma B, Wijma K., J Psychosom Obstet Gynaecol. 2006 Jun;27(2):113-9.
Post-traumatic stress was assessed in early and late pregnancy, and 1, 4, 7, and 11 months postpartum by means of questionnaires among 1224 women. Thirty-seven women (3%) had post-traumatic stress ... at least once within 1-11 months postpartum. In pregnancy, depression, severe fear of childbirth, 'pre'-traumatic stress, previous counseling related to pregnancy/childbirth, and self-reported previous psychological problems were associated with an increased risk of having post-traumatic stress within 1-11 months postpartum...
Prevalence and predictors of post-traumatic stress symptoms following childbirth, Czarnocka J, Slade P., Br J Clin Psychol. 2000 Mar;39 ( Pt 1):35-51.
OBJECTIVES: To identify the prevalence and potential predictors of post-traumatic stress type symptoms following labour... METHOD: Two hundred and sixty-four women who had 'normal' births were assessed within 72 hours on potential predictive measures and at 6 weeks post-partum for levels of symptoms of intrusions, avoidance and hyperarousal on a questionnaire derived from DSM-IV (American Psychiatric Association, 1994) criteria. Symptoms of depression and anxiety were also assessed. RESULTS: Three per cent showed questionnaire responses suggesting clinically significant levels on all three post-traumatic stress dimensions and a further 24% on at least one of these dimensions. Forward stepwise regression analysis yielded models for predicting outcome variables. Perceptions of low levels of support from partner and staff, patterns of blame and low perceived control in labour were found to be particularly related to experience of post-traumatic stress symptoms. Personal vulnerability factors such as previous mental health difficulties and trait anxiety were also related to such symptoms as well as being relevant predictors for anxiety and depression...
PTSD, risk factors, and expectations among women having a baby: a two-wave longitudinal study, Maggioni C, Margola D, Filippi F., J Psychosom Obstet Gynaecol. 2006 Jun;27(2):81-90.
INTRODUCTION: The aim of the study was to evaluate the incidence of chronic post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) after childbirth in relation to pre-partum variables (personality characteristics, anamnestic risk factors) and intra-partum obstetrical and neonatal variables. Since expectations before an event could modify the perceptions, reactions, and satisfaction afterward, the representations of the idealized delivery were carefully analyzed. Moreover, the real and desired help perception from physicians and family members were separately considered during pregnancy and after delivery in relation to PTSD. METHOD: The study was carried out submitting a questionnaire to pregnant women twice: firstly when women were in their 38 << 42 gestational week (Time 1) and secondly after 3-6 months from childbirth (Time 2). 93 women were recruited at a University City Hospital in Milan, Italy. PTSD subscales, depression, and anxiety levels were also assessed. RESULTS: 2.4% of women had a complete PTSD, while 32.1% of them resulted in having one or two positive subscales of symptoms: 15.5% (N = 13) had a positive intrusion subscale, 25.0% (N = 21) had a positive arousal subscale, while only 3.6% (N = 3) had a positive avoidance subscale... Given the high percentage of healthy newborns, intra-partum obstetrical variables do not seem to influence PTSD. High trait anxiety distinctively coexists with a specific expected delivery and a 'deception' in desired and real support from professionals. CONCLUSIONS: Childbirth is a risk condition for PTSD, depression during pregnancy influences the intrusion subscale, while having physical problems influences the arousal subscale...
These studies (and other similar studies) give us vital information about the nature of postpartum stress and trauma. The main point is that the development of a postpartum stress disorder (and associated claims of "trauma" or "rape") are directly related to psychological factors NOT to actual events. In other words, when women claim that they are victims of "birth rape" it is because of distortions in their perception of what happened, not because of what actually happened. I cannot emphasize this enough. There is no evidence of any kind to substantiate claims of "birth rape". There is no difference in what actually happens to women who subsequently claim "birth rape" and women who are pleased with their experience. The only difference is that because of pre-existing risk factors like depression, some women have a pathological reaction to the experience of birth.
These studies (and other similar studies) give us vital information about the nature of postpartum stress and trauma. The main point is that the development of a postpartum stress disorder (and associated claims of "trauma" or "rape") are directly related to psychological factors NOT to actual events. In other words, when women claim that they are victims of "birth rape" it is because of distortions in their perception of what happened, not because of what actually happened. I cannot emphasize this enough. There is no evidence of any kind to substantiate claims of "birth rape". There is no difference in what actually happens to women who subsequently claim "birth rape" and women who are pleased with their experience. The only difference is that because of pre-existing risk factors like depression, some women have a pathological reaction to the experience of birth.
This will be my last comment on the subject but let me just make sure I'm clear on what you're saying. So you're saying that abuse NEVER happens, that it is ALWAYS in the head of the accuser because they have characteristics and conditions that predispose them to claims of abuse, such as depression, previous sexual assault, etc..? So no doctor in the history of birth has done anything that could be called abusive or a crime? That's amazing. The level of denial is astounding.
I truly pity the women under your care.
"So no doctor in the history of birth has done anything that could be called abusive or a crime? That's amazing."
of course that's not what she's bloody well saying, and you know it. How very disingenuous.
"The fact that you won't even TRY to understand or have an open-minded dialogue... "
In contrast with your accusations of being a "rape-apologist and denier", Amy Tuteur has posted peer-reviewed evidence. You have posted anecdote and insult.
Compare and contrast: Evidence, anecdote. Knowledge, supposition. Focus on patients, focus on self. Restraint, hyperbole. Objectivity, subjectivity.
Why am I continuing this? We're clearly at an "la la la la! I can't hear you!" impasse.
Amy Tuteur, MD said...
Yes, as a matter of fact, considerable research shows that there is. In addition, there is considerable research that shows that the most important predisposing factor to claims of "birth trauma" or PTSD is a previous history of mental health issues, particularly depression. What is most important is that research shows that claims of "birth rape" and "birth trauma" cannot be confirmed by independent observers. That's because it exists only in the minds of women, NOT in reality
-------
Well firstly non of the research posted talks about "birth rape" as opposed to "birth Trauma". A traumatic birth might be caused by any number of reasons. Birth rape or (if it makes it less controversioal Vaginal or anal medical procedures performed without consent, or after withdrawal of consent). Is not the same thing. Birth rape might be a cause of PTSD/ppd but of course there might be a myriad of other causes.
The thing that really shocks me is that there is no questioning of wether current behaviour constitutes best practise, despite the testimonies against it.
You said
"There is no evidence of any kind to substantiate claims of "birth rape". There is no difference in what actually happens to women who subsequently claim "birth rape" and women who are pleased with their experience. The only difference is that because of pre-existing risk factors like depression, some women have a pathological reaction to the experience of birth."
This is possibly true.(although again here you are refering to birth trauma as there has been no research on birth rape) However I think we need to ask ourselves this question. Is it ok to perform a vaginal/anal exam without patient consent? Is it ok to break waters/administer drugs/manually dilate cervix without permission? If you and other medical professionals think the answer to this is yes then of course they will not see the difference in experience between someone who felt traumatised and someone who did not as both their experiences were the same- this is standard medical practise. HOWEVER this does not mean that this behaviour is ok or appropriate. It is immoral and unethical and it does have a traumatic effect on some women.
Most of us are conditioned to think that we must do whatever the doctor tells us. They they know best and we must obey. But as adults with mental capacity we have the right to set out our boundaries. We have the right to consent or withdraw consent from medical procedures without pressure or coersion and if the doctor or HCP violates that then they violate our rights.
Most women do not complain. Society tell us that this is what birth is like and shut up- at least you gt a helthy baby out of it. I don't know for sure if this phenonenen exists but i think that it should be an area of furter academic study and that in themean time HCP's should be encouraged to consider the ethics of their actions.
Amanda
Amy, is this your web site?
http://www.askdramy.com/
Picture doesn't look like you but the names the same.
Amanda:
"However I think we need to ask ourselves this question. Is it ok to perform a vaginal/anal exam without patient consent? Is it ok to break waters/administer drugs/manually dilate cervix without permission? If you and other medical professionals think the answer to this is yes then of course they will not see the difference in experience between someone who felt traumatised and someone who did not as both their experiences were the same- this is standard medical practise."
You have missed one of the most important points. It's not that women who aren't traumatized are simply more accepting of violation. It's that women who insists that they have been traumatized get the same care as women who are pleased with their experience, and independent observers do not witness the violations that the patient describes.
When a former soldier claims that people in the shopping center parking lot are shooting at him, it seems very real to him, but it has not happened. The appropriate treatment is not to chastise the other shoppers and investigate them for shooting guns in the parking lot. Similarly, when a woman asserts that she has been the victim of "birth rape", it seems very real to her, but it did not happen. The appropriate response is not to condemn the doctor, or investigate him or her for rape. The appropriate response is the same as for the person who believes that he is being shot at, help and therapy to understand the reason for these pathological responses.
Amity & Debs.
I believe people like you are truly evil. There's no doubt some women have horrible experiences whilst giving birth. That's often the nature of the process. There's also no doubt that sometimes communication isn't what it should be, and that things happen in the heat of the moment that could have been done a lot better. Consent for anything is very important. No one would argue against that. Usually consent's implied - this is the nature of everyday practice. You don't understand this because you live in your sick little imaginary worlds.
There's no doubt that people equating a clinical examination in a fucked-up woman with a messed-up personality disorder (like Debs) with rape are sick sick people, evil with intent to do harm to other human beings doing the best they can.
You will get your just deserts in the end - what goes around does come around. You're spouting pure filth.
Anon 11:21.
You seems to be under the impression that it was a couple of days...or that it was about how we talk.
A few years ago when i was doing the course it was weeks (we actually spent more time doing these cmmunication subjects than respiratory or pharmacology.
In the end maybe i will be a beter communicator but the ass covering (as you say its all about not getting chased through the courts) means you may like me more and may decide not to contact the GMC if i make a mistake due to my lack of knowledge.
I hope i spent enough long nights and weekends inthe library to make up for my gaps so that i can be liked and a good doctor. I suspect though the standards will be lower in the future but patient focus and communication will make you all much happier :)
anonymous 5.39pm.
Do you believe that vaginal and anal examinations are carried out without consent on anaesthetised patients? If so, is this OK? I don't see how anyone could believe that consent is implied in this situation as hardly any patients know it happens. If so many within the medical profession see this as OK (and it appears to be considered normal practice according to the comments here), how can you believe that there can be no substance to the claims made by Amity & Debs?
Amy Tuteur said: ""If someone inserts ANYTHING into a woman's vagina without her permission, or continues to penetrate her after she has withdrawn consent, that person - male or female - is committing a form of rape."
Whoa! Most people have completely missed a very important point. INTENT must be present. Just as being responsible for the death of a person is not necessarily murder, since murder depends on intent, putting an object into a woman's vagina is not necessarily rape, because rape depends on intent."
Amy - if a patient withdraws consent for an intimite procedure, and the Doctor carries on regardless, then the Doctor is surely clearly demonstrating INTENT. Intent to continue an unwanted intimate procedure and specifically go against the patient's wishes.
You also said:
" There is no evidence of any kind to substantiate claims of "birth rape". There is no difference in what actually happens to women who subsequently claim "birth rape" and women who are pleased with their experience. The only difference is that because of pre-existing risk factors like depression, some women have a pathological reaction to the experience of birth."
What utter twaddle. What you say simply doesn't stack up. Surely part of the skill of a Doctor is to ensure that the patient is well informed and aware at all times of what is happening; that any examinations are conducted sensitively and professionally and that the individual is treated with respect. If all the above factors are present, then why would anyone feel that their body had been violated?! I've had two children, 1 by Em LSCS and the second was a VBAC and both times I was completely aware of what was going on. I appreciated that the midwives talked me through everything and explained the reasons for the CS, which was a rather traumatic experience.
anonymous 7:29:
"Amy - if a patient withdraws consent for an intimite procedure, and the Doctor carries on regardless, then the Doctor is surely clearly demonstrating INTENT. Intent to continue an unwanted intimate procedure and specifically go against the patient's wishes."
No, it is not. YOU aren't the one who gets to define what the crime is or what intent is. In order to commit rape, there must be intent to commit rape. You could argue that touching after consent is withdrawn is a form of assault (even then you would have to prove it complies with the definition of assault), but that does not make it rape.
What women busily crying "birth rape" seem to forget is that there are women who are raped by their physicians. A psychiatrist who tells a patient that he must perform a pelvic exam on her is committing rape; a psychiatrist or other practitioner who claims that sexual acts are a form of "therapy" is committing rape; a doctor who fondles an anesthetized patient is committing rape. On the other hand, a doctor who performs a completely appropriate vaginal exam during labor is NOT committing rape and it is despicable to claim that he or she is doing so.
The issue of consent is hardly as clear cut as defenders of the concept of "birth rape" claim. At least in the US, most patients sign consent forms that give doctors broad powers to examine and treat in the midst of a medical event. Yelling "Stop, that hurts" is NOT a withdrawal of consent. Lots of things in medicine hurt, and the patient complaining about them does not mean that consent has been withdrawn.
Fundamentally, the issue of "birth rape" gives us important information about the women who feels victimized and NO information about what actually happened.
Amy Tuteur said, "In studies of "birth trauma", independent observers could not tell the difference between the care of women who later claimed that they were traumatized and the care of women who were pleased with their care."
Anecdotal I know, but sometimes independent observers do see a difference.
http://www.midwiferytoday.com/enews/enews0924.asp#qwr
"I consider the assault and bodily harm—which could easily be likened to rape—occurred when the interventionist doctor decided that forceps were required (despite there being no fetal compromise in any way—just a scared and tired mother who had been terrified into believing she could not give birth now to her baby and may be compromising it by continuing to try). He performed an episiotomy with NO anaesthetic and no real informed consent, causing terrible pain and distress to the mother. Then the forceps were applied and the baby dragged into the world from an agonised mother who was frozen in her distress and unable to look at her child or hold it. I believe that this invasion of her body and the physical violence that she endured amounted to assault akin to rape—the coercion, lack of control and damage to her body, carried out by a man in front of others who should have been able to help her."
Amy said: "At least in the US, most patients sign consent forms that give doctors broad powers to examine and treat in the midst of a medical event. Yelling "Stop, that hurts" is NOT a withdrawal of consent."
In the UK the Department of Health says:
"A patient with capacity is entitled to withdraw consent at any time, including during the performance a procedure. Where a patient does object during treatment, it is good practice for the practitioner, if at all possible, to stop the procedure, establish the patient’s concerns, and explain the consequences of not completing the procedure. At times an apparent objection may reflect a cry of pain rather than withdrawal of consent, and appropriate reassurance may enable the practitioner to continue with the patient’s consent. If stopping the procedure at that point would genuinely put the life of the patient at risk, the practitioner may be entitled to continue until this risk no longer applies."
http://www.rdu.mmu.ac.uk/ethics/docs/resources/consent%20guidance.pdf
Crippen said: "Childbirth is a painful and dangerous business. It is more dangerous to a woman’s health than anything she will experience until she reaches old age."
Are you sure? 'Pregnancy complications' are a relatively minor cause of death in women in the US, ranking as the 6th cause of death in 20-24 year olds and 7th for 15-19 and 25-34 year olds. Pregnancy complications don't even make the top 10 for other age groups and includes pregnancy, childbirth and the puerperium, not just birth itself. More than 14% of women who died in 2004 aged 20-24 died in car accidents compared to 2.7% from pregnancy complications. Other causes included other accidental injuries, accounting for 26% of deaths, Homicide 8.4%, Cancer 8%, Suicide 7.6% and heart disease at 4.6%.
Dr Amy Tutuer MD - you say 'intent' is required to commit rape. Well first of all Debs is in the UK, whereas I assume you are in the US from your title. Mens Rea (or intent) is indeed required for the offence of rape in the UK. But the mens rea would simply be the intention to insert an object into the vagina without consent. There does not have to be a sexual motive. There have been some cases in the UK where women have been convicted of rape on these grounds - their intention was not sexual but to torture and humiliate their victim. Similarly a doctor who performs surgery without appropriate consent, may not intend harm. But they are still guilty of assault. Oh and did I mention that we currently have 11 convicted sex offenders licensed to practice medicine in the UK? I think I did.....
Amy said "At least in the US, most patients sign consent forms that give doctors broad powers to examine and treat in the midst of a medical event."
Amy - I've had 2 children and did not sign ANYTHING! In my experience, consent is verbal and in my book telling someone to STOP an intimate examination is the withdrawel of that consent. Carrying on in the absence of consent demonstrates INTENT in my opinion. As other posters have pointed out "assault" maybe a more appropriate word to describe the event.
I would consider that the doctors who have treated the women who describe their birth experience as rape are delivering sub-optimum care - the ability to explain the reasons for treatment and the skill to carry it out without causing the patient distress. I am disappointed that you consider this practice to be acceptable and 'normal'.
What if the same doctors doing the same thing has a few thousand women who thought the care was excellent but 1 who said he had "raped her".
Does that stand that the care is failing or that it is more likley that a small number of women (it may only be 1) have an experience that anyone else would deem acceptable but themselves did not?
Crippen said, "And a second comment from an experienced obstetrician".
If she's such a great obstetrician and is presumably earning +-$150,000pa, why does she stoop to selling pregnancy advice at $4.95 a shot over the internet? I bet all of what she says can be found for free on the internet, but why not rip a few women off if you can?
polly styrene:
"Mens Rea (or intent) is indeed required for the offence of rape in the UK. But the mens rea would simply be the intention to insert an object into the vagina without consent."
No, that is not true. First of all, the decision to prosecute someone for rape rests with the prosecutor, not with the accuser. If the prosecutor does not agree with the accuser, or if the prosecutor thinks that the case cannot be proven, he or she may never issue charges.
According to the Crown Prosecution Service Policy for Prosecuting Cases of Rape:
"Under the previous law as set out in the Sexual Offences Act 1956, the statutory definition of rape is any act of non-consensual intercourse by a man with a person; the victim can be either male or female. Intercourse can be vaginal or anal. It does not include non-consensual oral sex. Consent is given its ordinary meaning, and lack of consent can be inferred from the surrounding circumstances, such as submission through fear. It is a defence if the defendant believed that the victim was consenting, even if this belief was unreasonable, and this is a matter of fact for the jury. Offences committed before 1May 2004 will be prosecuted under the 1956 Act.
Offences committed on or after 1May 2004 will be prosecuted under the Sexual Offences Act 2003. The Act extends the definition of rape to include the penetration by a penis of the vagina, anus or mouth of another person. The new Act changes the law about consent and belief in consent.
The meaning of consent was not defined in previous legislation. Instead, the meaning was established in case law, which meant that the legal meaning of consent was not always clearly understood.
The word "consent" in the context of the offence of rape is now defined in the Sexual Offences Act 2003. A person consents if he or she agrees by choice, and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice. The
essence of this definition is the agreement by choice. The law does not require the victim to have resisted physically. The question of whether the victim consented is a matter for the jury to decide, although we consider this issue very carefully when first reviewing the file. The prosecutor will take into account evidence of all the circumstances surrounding the offence."
This definition is confirmed by the advocacy organization RapeCrisis England and Wales.
Anonymous 8:20:
"I've had 2 children and did not sign ANYTHING!"
Just because you don't remember what you signed, or you didn't read it before you signed does mean that you didn't sign a consent form. If you went to a hospital, you signed a consent form at some point. It may have been months before when you registered to give birth at the hospital or it may have been among all the insurance documents that you signed when you were admitted.
Amy tuteur, you have mental health issues. Just because someone says something you disagree with, it doesn't mean they are lying. I have had children in the UK and was never asked to sign anything, either at the beginning of my anti-natal care or at any stage before during or after delivery. What insurance documents!!! We don't have insurance in the UK. Exactly how many births have you attended in the UK?
Dr Tuteur - if you had actually studied the law of England (not US law, English Law - it's different) instead of reading about it on the internet, you would realise that the issue of mens rea (intent, or "guilty mind") in rape is separate from the issue of consent, and that both of these are separate from whether or not the CPS decides to prosecute an offence.
If someone consent to penetration, that is a defence to a charge of rape. However consent can be withdrawn at any time. It is also true that "reasonable belief" that the defendant consented is a defence. However if someone says "stop", or otherwise withdraws consent, when penetration has already occurred, that is clearly withdrawal of consent. The fact that penetration has already occurred, does not mean that rape does not occur if consent is withdrawn. There have been prosecutions for rape when consent is withdrawn in the middle of intercourse for instance.
However whether or not there was consent in any individual case, or a reasonable belief in consent, will be decided by the jury, with direction on the law by the judge, after considering the evidence placed before the court.
The Crown prosecution service (CPS) is the government body that prosecutes criminal cases. However an individual can also bring a private prosecution if they wish. The CPS may decide not to proceed with a case if they do not think it is in the public interest eg if they do not think the evidence is strong enough to have a realistic chance of conviction. Whether or not the CPS decides to prosecute an individual offence does not affect the criminal law in any way.
Neither of these things is anything to do with whether or not there is evidence of intent to commit the offence, which is completely separate issue.
And whether or not the rape crisis federation endorses something is neither here nor there, as it is not a law making body.
Correction - The post above should read "it is also true that reasonable belief that the victim consented is a defence" - not 'defendant'
I'm a doctor, and have always been very concerned with issues of consent. When I was a student I refused to do the unconsented VEs under GA. Certainly if consent is explicitly never given or is withdrawn, assault is taking place if a procedure continues anyway.
However, I am gobsmacked at the idea espoused here that any woman who has a bad experience in labour can perceive herself to have been 'birth raped', and this ipso facto makes it so. Amy Tuteur has shown hard, peer reviewed evidence that the only difference between those who come away from birth with a positive versus negative experience is in their own perception of it; nothing different actually took place. Why should any woman have the right to decide that what for everyone else is a normal, albeit unpleasant, experience was rape for them?
I grant that this evidence does not look at every birth that has ever happened, and I'm sure that some doctors/midwives are not blameless. I also have every sympathy for genuine rape victims. But I do believe that scaremongering of this type by Amity and her ilk is counterproductive; who is more likely to falsely see malintention- one who has never thought of such a thing or one who has had such ideas rammed into their heads?
polly styrene:
"you would realise that the issue of mens rea (intent, or "guilty mind") in rape is separate from the issue of consent, and that both of these are separate from whether or not the CPS decides to prosecute an offence."
That's irrelevant. The definition of rape does not encompass a medical exam without consent. In other words the whole idea of "birth rape" is not even recognized under the law, so it is a complete fabrication to claim that a medical exam without consent meets the legal definition of rape.
chris said, "Amy Tuteur has shown hard, peer reviewed evidence that the only difference between those who come away from birth with a positive versus negative experience is in their own perception of it; nothing different actually took place" and "I grant that this evidence does not look at every birth that has ever happened, and I'm sure that some doctors/midwives are not blameless."
I think everyone who believes it happens has agreed it's rare. The studies Amy cited were too small to safely conclude that rare instances of 'birth rape' would have been included.
The studies do not prove that the 'only difference between those who come away from birth with a positive versus negative experience is in their own perception of it'. This could only be proven if the the medical staff and/or other observers were interviewed too and this isn't the case with any of the quoted studies. We have already heard from one midwife who considered that an assault had taken place during a birth but nobody acknowledged this to the mother. Even the midwife in question was unable to raise the issue with the mother afterwards. It would have appeared to the mother that the medical profession considered her treatment to be normal, which is all the research quoted by Amy confirms.
http://www.midwiferytoday.com/enews/enews0924.asp#qwr
"I consider the assault and bodily harm—which could easily be likened to rape—occurred when the interventionist doctor decided that forceps were required (despite there being no fetal compromise in any way—just a scared and tired mother who had been terrified into believing she could not give birth now to her baby and may be compromising it by continuing to try). He performed an episiotomy with NO anaesthetic and no real informed consent, causing terrible pain and distress to the mother. Then the forceps were applied and the baby dragged into the world from an agonised mother who was frozen in her distress and unable to look at her child or hold it. I believe that this invasion of her body and the physical violence that she endured amounted to assault akin to rape—the coercion, lack of control and damage to her body, carried out by a man in front of others who should have been able to help her.
My ability to help this woman was severely limited at the time. I was, I realised afterwards, traumatised too—feeling a deep sense of uselessness and failure as a midwife. I still wonder what she made of it all, how she felt toward her baby and her partner and how she would cope with another birth—if she felt able to go through it. After the birth the next day I went to see her on the ward and she was obviously shell-shocked and lost within herself. When she looked directly into my eyes I could see her pain, but everyone around was cooing over the baby and full of excitement and cheeriness. At that time I felt unable to raise the issue and give her an opening to talk about it."
I agree- sounds pretty unpleasant. I dont think anyone would argue that.
But it's pretty emotive language, and thats the only thing backing up her "belief" that this was assault akin to rape.
Did Mum enjoy the experience? Clearly not.
But did she refuse consent? No. This presumably was because of how the doctor had counselled her. Do we have any suggestion here that the doctor was in any way wrong? Only that the midwife accused him of being 'interventionist', an accusation midwives are quite prone to throw around. The procedures described aren't to be applied lightly, but neither are they in any way unusual or a sign of deficient care.
So in what way is this midwife justified in throwing around the accusation 'rape' !
Originally posted elsewhere but seems relevant here, so apologies to those who are reading this a second time.
I think that what's happened in these cases is often as bad as rape, possibly even worse because of the initial level trust in the medical profession that most people have and because it is happening at such an important and intimate time in their lives. But legally, it isn't rape, and I think the use of this word is distracting people from the main issues.
Sexual Offences Act 2003
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/ukpga_20030042_en_1
If you look at the legislation it says this about rape:
"Rape
A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis..."
The closest sexual offence would be 'assault by penetration', but this requires that the penetration is sexual.
"Assault by penetration
(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina or anus of another person (B) with a part of his body or anything else,
(b) the penetration is sexual,
(c) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(d) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(2) Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents..."
Sexual is further defined in the Act as:
"“Sexual”
For the purposes of this Part (except section 71), penetration, touching or any other activity is sexual if a reasonable person would consider that—
(a) whatever its circumstances or any person’s purpose in relation to it, it is because of its nature sexual, or
(b) because of its nature it may be sexual and because of its circumstances or the purpose of any person in relation to it (or both) it is sexual."
The explanatory notes on the Act (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/en/ukpgaen_20030042_en_1) specifically mention that medical procedures are excluded - "where the penetration is sexual (as defined in section 78), so that it excludes, for example, intimate searches and medical procedures...", though obviously if a supposed procedure is carried out for sexual reasons they will not be exempt, as in this case,
Doctor guilty of sex assault on teenager
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/42220/Doctor-carried-out-sex-attack-on-girl-aged-13-
http://www.eveningstar.co.uk/content/eveningstar/news/story.aspx?brand=ESTOnline&category=News&tBrand=ESTOnline&tCategory=News&itemid=IPED01%20May%202008%2006%3A52%3A11%3A237
Debs says:
"Almost, to me on a personal level, whether it is called ‘rape’ or not is irrelevant. What is unavoidable here is the cavalier attitude of (usually male, although I have experienced this from female doctors, too) doctors to women’s bodies, and their denial of women’s experience. "
Which I can understand and agree with to a point. But using the word 'rape' may make it easier for doctors and others to deny these terrible experiences.
Dr Tuteur - I don't care what US law says. English Law is different. The definition of rape (or serious sexual assault carrying the same maximum penalty, life imprisonment) under English law is penetration of the mouth, vagina or anus, of ANY PERSON, without consent. This needs to be done by a penis for the mouth, or an penis or object for the anus and vagina. Whether or not the person doing is it a doctor, soldier,sailor, tailor or tinker is irrelevant. Whether or not the victim or perpetrator is male or female is irrelevant. The two crucial elements are lack of consent and penetration. There is no defence of 'having been to medical school'. I know that going to medical school in the US has obviously made you an expert on English Law (heavy sarcasm) as opposed to me who has actually been to law school in England, (studying English law) but....
Amy Tuteur said: "Just because you don't remember what you signed, or you didn't read it before you signed does mean that you didn't sign a consent form. If you went to a hospital, you signed a consent form at some point. It may have been months before when you registered to give birth at the hospital or it may have been among all the insurance documents that you signed when you were admitted."
Amy, what you have written above is totally and utterly incorrect!
1. I am in the UK. UK medical insurance specifically EXCLUDES childbirth.
2. I DID NOT SIGN A CONSENT FORM for EITHER of my births in my UK hospital.
3. My first birth was an Emergency section. My husband signed the consent form AFTER the event since it was an emergency. I did not see it, nor was I given a copy. My second birth was a VBAC and I DID NOT sign ANYTHING AT ALL. I have not forgotten what I did or didn't do or read.
4. UK maternity care is usually started off by a Community Midwife attached to the GP surgery; when you are referred to hospital varies considerably according to the hospital's protocol. For instance, the hospital I choose does a dating scan at around 12 weeks. Another local hospital scans at 14 weeks.
Please do not make assumptions!
Naffed off UK Mother
Thank's Sally.
I would be interested to know how many men regard examination of the prostate gland as male rape. Very few I suspect. If these people you've written about are feminists then I don't want to be one. Personally if I had a serious medical problem I would not be worrying about please and thank you I would just want it sorted by whoever was most qualified to sort it.
Jilly - not everyone takes the same view as you... I had a male colleague who had a rectal examination at an Out Patient's appt. He wasn't keen and articulated this to the Doctor, whose response went along the lines of 'don't be so stupid, people do this for fun, you know!'
How would men feel if they had had a rectal examination whilst under GA for a totally unrelated problem? How would you feel? There's a world of difference between consenting for something and not giving your consent or withdrawing it, to find that the Doctor ignores your request to stop.
The majority of Bubbas in the pre-Civil war south were good to their slaves, treated them well, knew what was best for them. There was no prejudice, racism, or inhumane treatment. Those good niggahs knew their place.
This is the most amazing thread. Kind of like you planned it, but I suppose not. However, it quite handily proves the one previous, something about dumbing down the medical profession.
"How would men feel if they had had a rectal examination whilst under GA for a totally unrelated problem? How would you feel?"
I would feel precisely the same as though the doctor had taken the opportunity to check me for dodgy-looking moles or swollen tonsils.
"Why should any woman have the right to decide that what for everyone else is a normal, albeit unpleasant, experience was rape for them?"
Your question presumes that just because most people consider a practice normal that it is in fact normal. It has traditionally been considered normal for a man to have sexual access to his wife at all times. That due to the wife's "duty" to have sex with her husband, husbands were in fact incapable of raping their wives. This is still the accepted belief by a great many in this world. It took the acts of some very brave women (feminists) standing up and saying, "Hey, this isn't normal!! My husband raped me!! Her husband raped her!! This must be stopped!!" in order for laws to be passed making marital rape a legal reality punishable by law.
Just because something is accepted to be a normal practice does not in any way, shape, or form mean that it is not a criminal practice. It absolutely is up to women to determine what is or is not rape. It is not the place of men like you to make that determination for them.
"It absolutely is up to women to determine what is or is not rape."
No - it's up to the law, you man-hating evil creep.
If you think a few disturbed women receiving an intervention that messes up their distorted psyche is "rape", then campaign for it to become law.
You'll find that your "opinions" are not shared by normal decent people, nor REAL rape victims (date, marital, stranger or otherwise)
Calm down anonymous 2.05pm, that much hate will just send your BP up.
NHS Pen pusher - that's how you feel, not everyone shares your view! Would it worry you that they hadn't asked? - I think students carry out rectal examinations on patients under GA as a form of 'practice' - not because they're doing you a huge favour.
Anon,
It may still happen (i have never seen it) but with the changes in medical education performing exams UA on non-consented patients it not as widespread as people seem to think.
Everyone i know either refused to do so when offered/ told to or have not been offered.
We had a short paragraph we had to read to the patient (giving very clear options to say no easily) then they had to initial the bit in the notes and sign consent.
In O&G and urology i never had to do a EUA without consent ans only 1 person ever refused it and most were quite forthright in saying it was fine (i think i was more worried than they were).
When we do a PR though it may be to learn but when we graduate and we are your Dr at least those kind people who let us practice will know we can feel a abnormal prostate.
Think of it this way, your doing yourself a favour as in the future we may be the ones you rely on to diagnose your prostate Ca.
Funny pseudonym - I understand what you are saying, and I agree that Doctors in training need to be able to identify 'normal' and 'abnormal'; however, I would prefer to be asked and would hate to think that students conducted examinations whilst I was not able to say if this was OK or not.
Just out of interest, say someone DID find an abnormality on a patient who had not given consent for such an examination; how do you explain the find, or does nobody say thing? What are the ethics with that?!
BMJ - rapid response letters to a study on EUA's by Yvette Coldicott et al.
http://tinyurl.com/3fup3s
"It may still happen (i have never seen it) but with the changes in medical education performing exams UA on non-consented patients it not as widespread as people seem to think."
It was happening too often in 2003, so it's not as if it's ancient history. http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/326/7380/97
"It also found that a quarter of examinations in anaesthetised or sedated patients seem not to have adequate consent from patients."
I have happily given consent for students to be present during appointments and have also given permission for examinations including one during labour though I refused a further examination during the second stage. I know my husband has also given permission for presence during appointments and examinations.
However, I'm not sure I would have given permission for an examination under GA and find the thought that it may have happened quite distressing, especially as I had a GA for a gynaecological problem 20 years ago when it sounds as though this practice was routine. I think it must have something to do with how vulnerable we, as patients, are in when under anaesthetic. We are completely in the medical staffs care and control. It must be more useful for the student to examine a concious patient. Do enough patients refuse permission to make examinations without permission necessary?
"NHS Pen pusher - that's how you feel, not everyone shares your view! Would it worry you that they hadn't asked? - I think students carry out rectal examinations on patients under GA as a form of 'practice' - not because they're doing you a huge favour."
If pushed, then yes consent should be sought for this kind of thing in an ideal world. Out of manners if nothing else! However, if it carries only negligible risk, and provides valuable training for med students, then I reason it as a utilitarian; if it causes me no harm and benefits the greater good, I have no problem with it. If too few people would consent than necessary to get students trained, then I can understand it being done without consent, on the same basis as before.
When doing an EUA the patient is unconscious and paralysed. With the absence of a two way communication process, what is there for the student to learn from this? For example, the student wouldn't know if they were being too rough. Would it not be better to do the exam while the patient is awake? That way the process is consensual (providing the consent is obtained in a non coercive way) and the student actually learns something.
So - NHS penpusher - you are happy to have an intimate examination without your consent, and without prior discussion, under GA when several medical students can do whatever they wish - ie conduct rectal examinations, examin your 'intimate' areas etc?
I actually agree with anon at 10.49 - I am happy to allow students to gain valuable knowledge by conducting exminations on me, with my knowledge and consent. It strikes me that there's something rather dodgy about doctors wishing to do exmainations without asking a patient particularly when they do not have the ability to object. Why would anyone want to do that? Maybe because patients object? Why else??
11:39 - Like I say above, if not enough patients would consent if asked, then yes; I'm happy for that to happen (again, if it carries negligible risk. I'm not a medic, so I don't know). Otherwise, I feel consent should be asked for, but that as a matter of courtesy more than anything else.
I expect a medical professional to see my bottom'n'bits as functional parts of anatomy, rather than marvelling over how peachy my rear is & the gargantuan size of my endowment. With this expectation, I see it as no different from an examination of other areas.
I'm sure med students have to touch a lot of bums & willies. I severely doubt that mine are so different as to cause any excitement. If I'm going to be unconscious at the time and unaware, what's the problem?
nhspenpusher, so a woman wakes up after, say surgery on her arm, and finds that she has discomfort and unexplained bleeding from her vagina (entirely possible, especially if she has something like a cervical erosion), how do you think she will feel? What do you think will go through her mind? Absolutely anything could have happened whilst under GA as far as she is concerned, especially if she has no idea that students ever do this (as is the case with most people I would guess). I've no idea if a similar scenario could play out with a man. Maybe it could if he has piles or something. How many people, on waking up with pain in their vagina or anus, would ask, was I raped whilst under GA? More likely they would just keep quiet and worry.
jw:
"nhspenpusher, so a woman wakes up after, say surgery on her arm, and finds that she has discomfort and unexplained bleeding from her vagina (entirely possible, especially if she has something like a cervical erosion), how do you think she will feel?"
Some questions before I respond to that:
Is this a documented scenario?
Is it a likely one?
Are these the circumstances under which EUGA is carried out?
"Is this a documented scenario?
Is it a likely one?"
I've no idea if it's documented but a friend of mine has a cervical erosion. A simple examination causes bleeding (maybe caused by contact with the speculum or stretching?) and a smear test causes bleeding and discomfort. It doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination to think that medical students making their first examinations might cause similar results.
"Are these the circumstances under which EUGA is carried out?"
Well we know that from the study linked above that, 'in only 24% of these examinations had written consent been obtained, and a further 24% of examinations were conducted apparently without written or oral consent', in Bristol in 2003. We don't know what type of operation was being carried out, but if they only selected operations where it would be normal to have vaginal or anal discomfort afterwards, it just proves further that they knew they were in the wrong.
Just reading through the rapid responses to the article mentioned above (thanks, anonymous 17th May 8.45pm for posting the link), and this struck a chord.
"As a medical student in the late 70's I was exposed to similar encouragement to examine women under anaesthetic without any prior knowledge of consent given. I have memories of feeling uncomfortable about not just performing an intimate examination under the gaze of my consultant but also by the fact that I was unable to obtain consent from the patient. At the same time, my wife, who was in a different part of the country observed similar practices whilst training as a nurse
The effect on my wife was more profound. She felt that this was a gross abuse of the patient, but on expressing her feelings the response was "she's asleep and would never know, don't go making trouble". This frustrated her attempts to protect the patient and created a mistrust of the medical profession which persists to this day.
This had significant consequences for her when she was faced with the prospect of having to have a nephrectomy. Only after lengthy negotiation and the support of a good friend (a theatre manager) who agreed to act as an advocate did she feel confident enough to consent to nephrectomy.
It should be recognised that, not only is it of overwhelming relevance to the patient, but is important to the staff who have direct responsibility for the care of the patients. Similarly for the students, who are not only learning their skills but developing attitudes towards patients."
A woman nervously opens all seven locks on her front door and peers out into the street. Phew, no lurkers or rapists hiding in the bushes.
She gets the children ready for school and drives them in the 4x4. They won't be killed by a drunk driver or a mindless drug crazed hoodie, not if she can help it.
She goes to hospital for her appointment. She hates it here, all the sick and dying, diseased scummy people. The smell. The doctor is saying something. Where is he from, aren't there enough British doctors to fill these jobs. And gynaecology really, it's not normal. You've got to watch these pervs, I mean what is the point of this frankly ridiculous test, it's just an excuse to generate extra cash for this god forsaken place. It's uncomfortable, what is he doing, oh I've had enough, I'm missing neighbours, 'get off me now'. He says something about the clamp on my fallopian tube, what rot!
etc, etc
http://razorbladeoflife.blogspot.com/2008/05/doctors-and-nurses.html
When things go wrong in medical procedures -- particularly when the people giving them are inattentive or disrespectful -- the experience can be deeply violating.
I had some major surgeries that went terribly wrong, necessitating several emergency surgeries. Those surgeries, because they were emergency procedures, were not things to which I could meaningfully withdraw consent.
Was I raped? No, no I wasn't -- and the doctors had nothing in their hearts but the desire to help me. But it was an *intensely* violating series of experiences that contributed to PTSD that I have.
In therapy and other places, I used the word "rape" to describe them -- because they involved people cutting into and entering my body when I didn't want them there, fiddling around with my insides, and closing me back up.
I don't use that word now, because I don't know what sexual violation feels like. They're not the same thing. However, what I experienced *was* in many ways a deeply distressing series of violations, and I still call it *that*.
The fact is that for some people, certain medical procedures can be VERY invasive. Since Debs reports that the person giving the treatment *did not stop* even when she said she wanted to reschedule later with someone else, her words don't surprise me in the least.
And, while I realize that it may *sometimes* be impossible to allow someone to withdraw consent in the middle of a procedure for safety reasons (or so senseless not to give it, as it would have been if I'd refused those emergency surgeries, that nonconsent isn't a real option unless one is willing to die)... this does not sound like one of them to me. (If I'm mistaken, please let me know.) And if that is the case, well, there's a word for not stopping when someone says no, and being shocked at Debs using it misses the point entirely.
The point is that SHE SAID NO. At which point a responsible person would withdraw immediately, or do whatever is medically necessary and then withdraw.
Wow. Charming.
Not sure if I understand what you're trying to say, dr. K... Was it just to voice the opinion that Debs doesn't understand
Hysteroslapingograms, rape, female anatomy and her own body, she's not really a feminist, and to question her sanity (and dismiss her words as if you had any right to do so, as if she was speaking to you in that post)? If so, I hope it made you feel better. Next time, maybe you'd want to consider not publishing such posts. (Posts in which you aim to hurt, disempower and humiliate someone. Rude posts, arrogant posts and otherwise toxic posts.) Because some people (um, lemme think... Debs... feminists, midwives, homebirth advocates... medical mistreatment victims... women, etc) might read that, and it might hurt them, make them angry and make them not trust doctors and health care providers.
And I am too angry myself to keep writing, so that would be all. My condolences. Practicing medicine must be really frustrating, for someone who doesn't seem to respect people.
L.
(^ comment written for Dr. Crippen, I never read other comments and wasn't joining the discussion)
Ok, I am a feminist, not a sexual assault vic. and I say this is not right. Women need to be informed of who will be doing what, who will be in the room, and the status and duties of those persons. Men feel the same way. Why do you think most physicians will not subject their families to teaching procedures? While physicians go about acting like they do no harm; or if a woman is harmed it is because she is sick in her head from previous abuse. 50% of women will reject males for intimate exams if given a choice, 100% of patients will reject more than one student doing practice exams.
Also, a culture of rape is established. Male orderlies, CNAs, students, all are taught that women's wishes are not to be respected, that once under anesthesia do what you will even if not in her best medical interest. Then after they have committed "medical rape" they may well leave you in the care of a male nurse who has watched all this happen. Do you think they are not likely to take advantage? 60% of males say they would rape if they knew they could get away with it. So now tell me, after I suffering repeated medical rape (three procedures in one year) and ending up with physical trauma the physician could not or would not explain, I went for STD tests. I tested + for herpes 2, my husband of 20 years is negative, and I was negative just months before these procedures. BTW each time I told them NO MEN, not because I had previously been abused, but because I am a feminist one who had read and studied philosophy, sociology, queer theory and morel. I am also 50+ with much personal experience of sexual harassment, sisters being raped and abused, and stupid arrogant doctors. My advise insist a family member be present all the while you are under the influence of their rape drugs and refuse care at any hospital that will not allow such. I wrote "no men" on my consent form, they drugged me and asked again, again I said "no men" for a mastectomy and removal of my overies, male students were involved, male anesthesiologist nurse, and male orderlies in prep and counts. And this is the V.A., how nice for the women returning from Iraq so abused to face this sort of treatment. ANY WOMEN IN THE STATE OF OREGON, WASHINGTON, CALIFORNIA, AND IDAHO THAT WANT TO ORGANIZE RESISTANCE TO THIS TREATMENT LET ME KNOW.
Mary
smallrevolution@peoplepc.com
Arrogance, Abuse, Fraud, and Medical Malpractice: How Some Physicians Beg for Lawsuits
BTW, it is not right to refuse to ask b/c they may object. Most patients will allow at least one student, 50% of women asked allowing one male student is enough (according to teaching hospitals) they just need to ASK more women. Truth is physicians just do not like to be told "NO", and if they are to be good physicians they must learn to accept this with respect. I am sick of women being put down for refusing men. What is this about, you doctors act like you are in high school thugs and rapists that cannot take "NO" for an answer.
Good article.Especially the language.We end up with a justice system again, where many innocent people are locked up again on the basis of an anonymous witness who may have a grudge financial interest etc in cooperating with the Police or whoever wants the defendant put away.
flashlights rc helicopter video games
Not sure what you mean by innocent people? The intent to violate the informed consent is real.
How is "medical rape" like other forms of rape, let me count the ways.
1. no consent
2. silent partners are often involved
3. the victim is blaimed
4. the perp substitutes their will for the will of their subjects
5. the victim often suffer from the offense
6. the perps refuse the definition of their act as an act of rape, some claim implied consent, some claim victims "should have known...", some claim it was simply not their intent, therefore, it was not rape.
7. the perps degrade and ridicule the victim
8. perps often team up to violate victims
9. perps seek victims that are young, under the influence of drugs, suffer mental illness, physical weekness, are poor, or are otherwise easy targets.
10. perps seek retaliation against victims who speak out
I could go on, but you get my point, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, qwacks like a duck,....
dr crippen
I know its probably a fools errand to get someone as dense and frankly unsympathetic as you to empathise with a situation. (the fact that you became a doctor is evidence of just how stretched the nhs must be to employ you)
But how would you feel if you went into hospital for what was supposed to be a fairly routine procedure on your genitals, and then suddenly told that the person doing this procedure had little experiance and further more when you asked them to stop the procedure because it was making you feel very uncomfortable (physicly and mentaly)carried on without giving you explanation or at least reashurance they'd stop as soon as possible due to the nature of the proceedure (if that was indeed the case).
I bet youd be left feeling pretty pissed off not to metion traumatised, especialy if youd been violated previously in the "traditionly accepted" manner.
The way you talked to debs was condesending and patronising,you dont need to have detailed knowledge of a medical proceedure to know when something is not kosher when its being performed on you.just because your a supposedly intelligent an well educated doctor does not give you the right to tell women how they should reespond if they were raped and it dosent give you the right to bellitle someone elses (male or female) experiances with the medical proffesion because they dont fit your narrow worled view.
you hide behind your screen name like a slimy toad (allthough the toads may take offence at that) i doubt someone as spineless ad you would have the balls to say that to her (or anyone elses) face.
but since your safe behind that nice little blog pheseudonim of yours you dont have to worry about a plethora of outraged feminists (and non femenists) giving you a well deserved clip around the ears.
I know i want to.
By the way im sorry to anyone who read the above comment for the bad spelling in the latter parts, i got more that a little agitated.
dr crippen
I know its probably a fools errand to get someone as dense and frankly unsympathetic as you to empathise with a situation. (the fact that you became a doctor is evidence of just how stretched the nhs must be to employ you)
Well, that’s a friendly start that is going to be conducive rational discussion!
But how would you feel if you went into hospital for what was supposed to be a fairly routine procedure on your genitals, and then suddenly told that the person doing this procedure had little experiance and further more when you asked them to stop the procedure because it was making you feel very uncomfortable (physicly and mentaly)carried on without giving you explanation or at least reashurance they'd stop as soon as possible due to the nature of the proceedure (if that was indeed the case).
I bet youd be left feeling pretty pissed off not to metion traumatised, especialy if youd been violated previously in the "traditionly accepted" manner.
I don’t disagree with the general principal. And, yes, I would feel very pissed off. All I am saying, though, is that it is not “rape” in the commonsense use of the word. The word “rape” should be reserved for the real offence. Debs use of it in this context demeans woman who have been raped. It also demeans real feminists
The way you talked to debs was condesending and patronising,you dont need to have detailed knowledge of a medical proceedure to know when something is not kosher when its being performed on you.just because your a supposedly intelligent an well educated doctor does not give you the right to tell women how they should reespond if they were raped and it dosent give you the right to bellitle someone elses (male or female) experiances with the medical proffesion because they dont fit your narrow worled view.
I am not condescending; or patronising; I am not “telling a woman how to respond”. I am only saying that Debs use of the word “rape” was inappropriate - and, as I said, demeaning to women who have been raped. That does not mean I approve of what happenedd to Debs and it does not mean that I am not sympathetic to her. She clearly needs support and probably therapy
you hide behind your screen name like a slimy toad (allthough the toads may take offence at that) i doubt someone as spineless ad you would have the balls to say that to her (or anyone elses) face.
but since your safe behind that nice little blog pheseudonim of yours you dont have to worry about a plethora of outraged feminists (and non femenists) giving you a well deserved clip around the ears.
I know i want to.
Yes, I am a pseudonymous medical blogger. And you are a pseudonymous commentator - so YOU are being hypocritical. Debs chose to put her sad rant up on the internet. That is a matter for her. But, by putting it up, she must expect people to comment. I note that now anyway she has taken her post down. And by the way, I did not notice (nor would I want or expect) her full name and address, so she is also pseudonymous. I think it is a shame that you are not prepared to have a real discussion. You are the sort of part-time feminist - I call you lot “the coffee shop feminists” - who give real feminism a bad name.
That’s a shame
John
mezumi said...
By the way im sorry to anyone who read the above comment for the bad spelling in the latter parts, i got more that a little agitated.
+++++
Hi Mezumi
It does not matter. I do the same when I feel strongly.
There is a problem, though. This post is ten months old and so now has very few readers. That is a shame as some people still feel so strongly about it.
I have made this offer before - and no one every takes it up, which makes me question motives - but will make it again.
As you feel so strongly about this issue, write a post of not more than a 1000 words, stating your feelings about Debs, and the article I wrote, and I will publish it EXACTLY AS SUBMITTED BY YOU on the front page, and you can have the debate out in the open again
Over to you
John
If you want to do it, send it to:
nhsblogdoc@gmail.com
"As you feel so strongly about this issue, write a post of not more than a 1000 words, stating your feelings about Debs, and the article I wrote, and I will publish it EXACTLY AS SUBMITTED BY YOU on the front page, and you can have the debate out in the open again"
If you are lucky, you may even get an acknowledgement that he has received your email. Or maybe not, going by my experience.
Anonymous said...
"As you feel so strongly about this issue, write a post of not more than a 1000 words, stating your feelings about Debs, and the article I wrote, and I will publish it EXACTLY AS SUBMITTED BY YOU on the front page, and you can have the debate out in the open again"
If you are lucky, you may even get an acknowledgement that he has received your email. Or maybe not, going by my experience.
+++++
Seems uncalled for, and characteristic of some of you people. I reply to ALL emails (OK, I may have missed one, I do get a lot) and the offer stands.
I don't know who YOU are, anonymous, but if I made the same offer to you about something and there was a problem, please let me know
nhsblogdoc@gmail.com
John
"I don't know who YOU are, anonymous, but if I made the same offer to you about something and there was a problem, please let me know"
I sent some information to you at your request. Information that was very difficult to write. I followed up with another email requesting at least an acknowledgement that you have received the information. One missed email I can believe, but two? Either you ignored them or they disappeared into a spam filter or some other internet black hole, so I don't feel it's worth responding privately again.
'Jane'
Well, I can only apologise for that. It might have gone into the Spam, but I doubt it. I did take a long break from the blog, and I did not look too carefully at the emails that came through during that period so I might have missed it. Anyway, I am not making excuses. It sounds like it probably was my fault. I'm sorry about that.
Still, if what you wrote was worth saying then, it is worth saying now, so why not send it again and, as I said above, I will put it up without alteration so that it can be discussed.
John
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Interesting comments. I wonder if in a hundred years, they will appear to us as how 19th and early 20th century views on sexual contact appear to us today. At one time, a husband could not rape his wife; males were never raped; females "cried rape" because they felt guilty about consensual sex; rape was not a war crime; rape only happened in dark alleys; rape was only committed by strangers; etc. I lose count of all the sexual assault myths I see on this page. Sometimes I forget how uneducated the world is, but you can also live in the most educated countries in the world and still be surrounded by idiots. Education is nothing within a culture that promotes a worldview where people who feel sexual violated are cast out as over-reacting, hysterical morons. And yet I feel that commenters (and the blogger) would benefit tremendously from some review of sexual assault statistics. They may prove enlightening, though I'm not getting my hopes up...
you would probably enjoy our "fuck feminism" section over at manhood101.com
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