Thursday, June 19, 2008

Dr Frankenstein? No, Dr Nurse.



As so often, via Kevin MD, I have just discovered the Covert Rationing Blog in the USA. How did I miss it? This excellent site is, not surprisingly, dedicated to monitoring the covert rationing of medical care in the USA. There is no better and more successful form of covert rationing than dumbing down. I note with a cross between horror and amusement that a new medical Frankenstein has appeared in the USA. The Doctor-Nurse.
The June 16 issue of AMANews reports that the National Board of Medical Examiners will begin offering a certification examination this fall for graduates of “doctor of nursing practice” programs. Revealingly, the test will be based on Step 3 of the U.S. Medical Licensing Exam. Doctor-nurses will soon be Board Certified, just like, uh, doctor-doctors. Mary Mundinger, the leading spokesperson for doctor-nurses says, “While a primary care physician went to medical school and did residency, a nurse practitioner with a DNP has achieved many of the same competencies but through nursing education. They have the same skills in identifying a disease state and treating it, but it’s a different hybrid of care.”

The Covert Rationing Blog - here come the Dr Nurses
Neologisms and new use of old words are two of my obsessions. Bullshitters are particularly prone to butcher the English language when they endeavour to give their psychobabble some specious credibility. The current fashion amongst medical bullshitters is to pluralise the word “competence”. Doctors are competent. Pretend doctors have “competencies”. Sounds better. Actually it doesn’t sound better, but the amaurotic twerps who churn out the psychobabble are not skilled in the use of English and so do not notice. And, for God's sake Mary, what exactly does "it's a different hybrid of care" mean? I know you are American, but surely you still speak some English.

So, if you see the word competencies, you know someone is bullshitting. Meanwhile, I am in a semantic quandary. I want a simple way to convey the following concept:
“A person who was a high-flyer at school, achieving a large number of GCSEs mainly at A* grade, followed by three or four top grade A levels, who then fought off competition from ten similarly qualified students to win a place at university where over five or six years (s)he studied anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, pharmacology, sociology, psychology, general medicine, general surgery, obstetrics, gynaecology, psychiatry, orthopaedics, otology, ophthalmology, traumatology and several other disciplines, then passed demanding exams in these subjects and then spent at least a year under supervision seeing hundreds of patients with problems falling within one of the aforementioned sub-specialities at which stage and subject to satisfactory completion of the supervised year was then deemed to have satisfactorily completed the course.”
The simple word I used to use was “doctor”. Unfortunately, that word has now been appropriated by people who drill teeth and by others who have done a three year course in making beds, emptying bed pans and taking blood pressure with electronic machines. We need a new word. All suggestions gratefully accepted.

When can we expect the Dr Nurses to take over? Sooner than you think. They are ideal for our micro-managing penny-pinching Prime Minister
Doctor-nurses (the healthcare system fervently hopes) will be more malleable than today’s Primary Care Physicians, less encumbered by tradition, attitude, and delusions of autonomy, and more likely to follow whatever guidelines the “experts” choose to hand them.

The rise of the Dr Nurse
Just what the government wants.  And they are already with us. For the moment in the UK we call these people with their "competencies" HCPs and nurse-specialists or, if we really want to take the piss, Consultant Nurses. We are not calling them Dr Nurse as yet, but what the USA does today...

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57 Comments:

Blogger Fat Lazy Male Nurse said...

If you skip the hysteria and read the original AMA news article it is clear that the programme is a PhD in nursing practice, and not a mredical degree. There is a test at the end of the programme based on the licensing exam for physicians, but this does not make the graduate a physican. It merely evaluates part of the programme of study.
There have been PhD programmes in nursing in the UK for many years now, I'm thinking of starting one myself. In fact our esteemed leader, 'fatty' Beasley is a PhD - so there's something to aim for.
When you, Dr C, rail against the dumbing down of health care - do you also disapprove of nurses pursuing academic qualifications. Or are these only for the elite you describe elsewhere in your post?
By the way, I asked my dentist why I have to call him Doctor when he has a BDS - he blushed and mumbled into his facemask.

Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:15:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well I'd call a 'doctor' a jack of all trades and the people trained for three years to make beds, empty bedpans and take blood pressure, monkeys.

Doctors and nurses should specialise at the start of their training.

Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:16:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

err Nurses do.

They specialise during university.

Doctors in the UK specialise now after 2 years. In those 2 years they do Medicine, surgery and AN Other. You need to do that otherwise when you have a surgical patient on your ward (with a medical problem you have no idea how to manage them, and the other way round. I can't imagine how bad it would be if you started surgery/ medicine/ O&G straight from medical school, people would be referring almost continuously...it's hard enough to get patients seen by a different team now!

Dr C I have already had a rant on one of your threads about a similar theme.
As a medical student I had to be with a nurse specialist who was about to start seeing her own patients from the specialty. The examination she did made my final year eyes water (and I would have failed for) she also "consulted" the SpR for "opinions" so as not to bother the consultant. It made me worry about the future.

It’s a brave new world ....and you need to be brave to

Before FLMN comes in I still stand by previous comments that I know nurses that put even the middle grades in the shame in their small area of expertise. The nurses in the main though who do these jobs have neither qualifications or (from what i see) the knowledge they need to do the job properly.

Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:31:00 PM  
Anonymous doctor-turned-investment-banker said...

A Phd in nursing, it even sounds stupid.

Definition of a nurse:
A health professional trained to CARE for people who are ill or unable to care for themselves.

You see that word, its care! not treat, not operate on, not diagnose, not anaesthetise, BUT care!

But, unfortunately your inferiority complex means you will always want to be able to take as many doctor roles as you can get your hands on.

Well, to any medics soon to graduate reading this, I advise you to change career, it's not worth it, becoming an investment banker was the best thing I ever did, including bonuses, I'm earning about 200k/year. If I had stuck to medicine, I'd be a registrar struggling to make 50k.

And you don't have to put up with big headed buffoon nurses who want to boss you around with their string of C,D gcse's, a few D a-levels and maybe even a mickey mouse phd.

Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:40:00 PM  
Anonymous NI GP said...

flmn

of course nurses are as entitled as anyone to pursue academic qualifications.

The issue here for me is confusing or even misleading patients. If a patient attends a health facility and is assessed or treated by someone with the title "doctor" I think they have the right to assume that that person has a medical degree and is on the Medical Register of the General Medical Council (or the equivalent sate boards in the USA). To base the final exam on the licensing exam for physicians is to muddy the waters further.

Dr C would contend and I would fully agree that often this confusion is deliberate. The idea is to palm off a non medical consultation as a medical one. Surely the Nursing profession should be celebrating its differences and objecting to anything which might make a patient mistake a nurse for a doctor?

Thursday, June 19, 2008 3:41:00 PM  
Blogger Fat Lazy Male Nurse said...

NIGP,

I agree with you entirely. A patient has the right to know who they are receiving care, treatment or advice from. It is the responsibility of that person to ensure the patient is aware of their identity. This is easily achieved at the outset of the consultation. As a male, I am often called doctor by my patients, probably due to the stereotypical, although outdated, perception of your profeesion being mostly made up of men. i am scupulous in corecting these patients every time they address me incorrectly. There are several reasons for this.
1. I am not a doctor
2. it is illegal to claim to be a doctor when one is not qualified to make that claim.
3. I have no wish to deceive my patients into thinking they have been seen by a doctor when they haven't.
4.I am comfortable, happy, reasonably well paid and experienced in my role. I do not need to claim to be a member of another profession, or give that illusion, in order to boost my own ego - I'm good at what I do, my patients and medical colleagues respect me and that is good enough for me.
5. If I were to pursue a PhD in the future. I probably wouldn't use the title professionally, apart from when writing to my bank manager as it would be too confusing.

I'm not sure that I agree with your point about the deliberate use of the title doctor to try and palm off a nursing consultation as a medical consultation. this is dishonest and deceitful and surely Mr Brown wouldn't allow dishonesty and deceit. Would he?


Doctor-turned-investment-banker.

Props to you for selling out, but why is a PhD in nursing stupid? Nurses need leaders with credibility and a strong academic background. Pursuing an academic career including a PhD is hardly the stupid option.

Thursday, June 19, 2008 4:40:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you want to pursue academic qualifications then do not become a nurse. I am a Physiotherapist and i still cannot work out why i have to be a bachelor of science to do my job.

Phd in Nursing, if it wsn't so funny i would cry

Whats next Phd in plumbing.

Get out of university and onto the wards that is what you (we) are paid to do.

(and i am at a loss to how Dr Crippen manages to do all these blogs with the workload he does / have)
So back to work too DR Crippen

(although keep up the blogging because it is great).

Gentleben

Thursday, June 19, 2008 5:19:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The word you are looking for is "Physician"

Thursday, June 19, 2008 5:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Chizzy said...

"C,D gcse's, a few D a-levels and maybe even a mickey mouse phd."

Sorry, I didn't realise that my straight A*'s in GCSE and my A's in Maths, further maths, Chemistry and Biology A level and Latin AS and my BSc in Neuroscience suddenly become C's and D's the moment I get my second degree in Nursing.

And well, why on earth would I want to further my education with a PhD? Because obviously if I'm a nurse, I'm too thick to get a REAL PhD, aren't I?

And what on earth is wrong with education for the sake of education?

Bastard.

I'm training to be a nurse because I wanted to be a nurse. If I wanted to be a doctor, I'd have been a doctor. End of.

Thursday, June 19, 2008 5:45:00 PM  
Anonymous drchris said...

"Registered Medical Practitioner" is the term protected under the Medical Act 1983.

Before I started writing this, I thought a good idea would be to suggest adding "RMP" to one's preferred post-nominal qualifications.

But it sounds far too much like "Our MP" for my liking.

Lord Darzi RMP

Chris BSc MD MRCP(UK)

Thursday, June 19, 2008 5:47:00 PM  
Anonymous anon1 said...

"of course nurses are as entitled as anyone to pursue academic qualifications."

What does this mean to you? Academic in what? Care? Or ...?

Fill the spaces please

Thursday, June 19, 2008 6:06:00 PM  
Anonymous NI GP said...

"of course nurses are as entitled as anyone to pursue academic qualifications."

What does this mean to you? Academic in what? Care? Or ...?



In whatever they want, same as you or me or anyone else.

Thursday, June 19, 2008 6:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

doctor-turned-investment banker said:
"Well, to any medics soon to graduate reading this, I advise you to change career, it's not worth it, becoming an investment banker was the best thing I ever did, including bonuses, I'm earning about 200k/year. If I had stuck to medicine, I'd be a registrar struggling to make 50k."

Obviously a wanker whose vocation was never medicine in the first place. Amazed he ever got a job like that in competition with much brighter chaps with PhDs in Physics, Operational Research and Engineering whose mathematical/analytical skills would far outclass those of a medic or biological scientist.

Thursday, June 19, 2008 7:16:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Obviously a wanker whose vocation was never medicine in the first place. Amazed he ever got a job like that in competition with much brighter chaps with PhDs in Physics, Operational Research and Engineering whose mathematical/analytical skills would far outclass those of a medic or biological scientist."

Well, my next door neighbour's son tried to get into medicine for two years running but couldn't, so he went to read physics at Imperial instead ...

I am surprised 'Imperial' gives offers of BBC for Physics! Do you know why w***** 1?

Thursday, June 19, 2008 7:58:00 PM  
Anonymous florence says no blacks allowed said...

painful as the truth is, pound for pound, doctors are far more intellectually capable. few nurses would be able to get into medical school let alone consider passing post grad exams

even more hurful for some of our readers is the fact that city firms still respect a primary medical degree. come with your RCN bachelors degree theyd piss their pants laughing. and then tell you to f-off and do a proper degree

Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:03:00 PM  
Blogger Advanced Practitioner said...

Yes 'RMP' is protected but not the title 'doctor'. When you get a medical degree the tile of 'doctor' is honorary!

Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:54:00 PM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

advanced practitioner said...
Yes 'RMP' is protected but not the title 'doctor'. When you get a medical degree the tile of 'doctor' is honorary!

Thursday, June 19, 2008 9:54:00 PM

++++

True, though only in the UK. Everywhere else it is an MD. But that does not detract from the common sense meaning of the word "doctor".



John

Thursday, June 19, 2008 10:43:00 PM  
Anonymous dentist said...

I realise the point was not to undermine dentists however... this morning i saw a patient with multiple myeloma, between courses of chemo that couldn't start again until i'd done an urgent biopsy of the oral lesion, after liasing with the consultant oncologist, arranging for FFP from Haematology and tranexamic acid from pharmacy, doing the biopsy, finally stopping the bleed and then informing the consultant that they could go ahead with the chemo tomorrow i saw my next patient for a filling and two surgical extractions. Not all dentists just drill teeth.
Dr Thomson BDS
As for the nursing Phd, as i've said before someone with a Phd has proved their worth and truely deserves the title of doctor, which Dr Crippen and I carry only as a courtsey.

Thursday, June 19, 2008 10:52:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, there are PhDs and there are PhDs. You just can't take the fact of a PhD in a 'soft' subject at face value. Every body knows that (or should). And, assuming nursing PhDs are examined by people with nursing PhDs, well..........

Hospital Doc

Friday, June 20, 2008 12:05:00 AM  
Anonymous doctor-turned-investment-banker said...

Anonymous said...

Obviously a wanker whose vocation was never medicine in the first place. Amazed he ever got a job like that in competition with much brighter chaps with PhDs in Physics, Operational Research and Engineering whose mathematical/analytical skills would far outclass those of a medic or biological scientist.

_____________________


Mmmmmmm, nice sour grapes, you don't sound bitter, no?

You know, my name ends with Bsc, MB BChir, PhD. Which I got in less than 9 years, fully intended on entering the world of cardiothoracic surgery up until my time as a junior doctor. Thankfully, I was brave enough to abandon medicine after all that hard work, nothing was getting any better.

It certainly has paid off, in more ways than one, best of all I am freed of the nhs, its tedious bureaucracy and penny pinching.

Oh and by the way, even still, there are ways into IB with just a bachelor in medicine.

Friday, June 20, 2008 12:07:00 AM  
Anonymous Fx said...

Dentist

Just a point of info here - you're a dental surgeon. Surgeons of any description drop the honourific "doctor" and call themselves "Mr". If you call yourself "doctor" you are advertising that you don't consider yourself to be competant as a dental surgeon.

Gads! So irritating to come across these dentists who think calling themselves "Dr" makes them more important. Get a grip!

Friday, June 20, 2008 1:58:00 AM  
Anonymous Mr Ian said...

Those who denounce the doctor-nurse title are obviously not aware of how such academia works.

The sense of exclusive entitlement of the "doctor" to call himself "Doctor" for having undergone an educational programme that confers a "doctorate" - just like any other doctorate - is arrogant.

The earliest use of "doctor" in WRITTEN English was in 1303, but the term applied to "doctors of the Church," meaning "learned men in the scriptures."
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Etymology-Meaning-Words-1474/doctor.htm

Your (dare I say "pompous"?) presumption is no less than the the original debate on the internet when America seemed to be the only ones to not have a Top Level Domain descriptor after their dot-com. Reality was, the USA do (.us) but they chose not to use it and merely dominated the .com - until everyone else realised they don't need to have a TLD - unless they wish to.

MD is a far more accurate title and is less presumptive title than any rights of exclusivity to the nomenclature of "Doctor".

Peculiarly, where any old 'doctor' of any old subject can call themselves 'doctor'; by law, only a nurse can call themselves a 'Nurse'.

When you in fact consider the word "doctor" comes from the Latin "docere" meaning to teach. This indicates a doctor as a teacher, especially a learned or authoritative one -

Which leads me to determine; Curmudgeon John Crippen, Physician, et al of that ilk - you are lucky we refer to you as a doctor at all.

Friday, June 20, 2008 4:37:00 AM  
Anonymous dentist said...

Fx i'm afraid that one doesn't work.
MBBS -Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery,

Should everyone who holds an MBBS call themselves Dr. or Mr they have both?
The GDC say i can use Dr. the BMA endorse it. And it means when i'm in practice i don't get mistaken for the work experience kid.

Friday, June 20, 2008 7:43:00 AM  
Anonymous Kris said...

Crippen you still are a smug cunt aren't you? convinced of your obvious intelligence, gracing us with your words of witticism and wonder, oh how lucky we are to be able to worship at the fount of such wisdom.

How many times as a junior Doctor did you ask the Nursing staff how something should be done? How many times have you asked the Nursing staff the correct dose/drug prescription of a medication that you (a) can't be arsed to find out (b) are too intelligent to bother looking for? How many times have the Nursing staff despite their obvious limited intelligence helped you out of a hole?

The patronising self aggrandisement that you display is typical of the medical profession as a whole.

Rather than accepting and embracing change and seeking to support and influence, you denigrate and belittle. Yes the whole argument about ANP's really boils down to cost. We know it, you know it but that still doesn,t give you the right to criticise the work they do much less denigrate the nursing profession as a whole.

And for the record dickface my training whilst far from ideal did include elements of anatomy, physiology,pharmacology along with all the useless sociology bollocks.

Try this attitude on the Unit i work on Cuntface and you'd be carrying your teeth home in a jar

Friday, June 20, 2008 7:49:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How about
QUalified
Acute &
Chronic
Keyworker?

Sorry, couldn't resist;-)
j

Friday, June 20, 2008 10:16:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I feel very sad reading this. Dr Crippen says over and over that he has respect for nurses, but it seems that his respect only applies if nurses are shoveling shit at the cold face. He likes them if they do basic care, but woe betide them if they want to develop their career.

I was one of those specialist nurses that he so hates. One day, my employer realised that they could save money by getting rid of the doctor completely by operating a "Nurse led" service. This is happening in occupational health every day. I didn't want to be the mug that got paid £20 an hour (The doctor that they got rid of was earning £180 per hour) for doing the work of the doctor and the nurse, so I went back to school to do a levels and then started medical school.

I qualify soon and wander what Dr Crippen thinks of nurses like me who get much too big for their boots and go off and become doctors. I really can't imagine it would be positive.

Friday, June 20, 2008 10:43:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The issue here for me is confusing or even misleading patients. If a patient attends a health facility and is assessed or treated by someone with the title "doctor" I think they have the right to assume that that person has a medical degree and is on the Medical Register of the General Medical Council"

Then we can also assume that a surgeon who calls himself Mister does not have a medical degree? Glad that's sorted.

Ignoring the crap about who is called what, there's nothing wrong with a nurse doing a PhD, as long as that degree does actually contain original research that adds to human knowledge and isn't watered down to some airy fairy nonsense. Can we please acknowledge that doctors are not gods and that a PhD is superior to an MD? This is a totally different issue to the introduction of nurse specialists and really the childishness of name calling does the oposition to this no favours.
Nurses are perfectly entitled to advance their careers, as are the many other, criminally ignored, professional groups in the NHS. They should not however, keep trying to take on the role of everyone else, which is what is happening now. There should be a pride in the skill of nursing as a career in itself, but this is being eroded. There are constant complaints of a shortage of nursing staff on the wards, and yet we are expected to celebrate the creation of 5000 "modern matrons" who are off the ward and into management, the creation of nurse specialists and nurse consultants, all designed to take the nurse off the ward to give them some sense of achievement. It's time we acknowledged the value of those nurses who do what nurses should be doing and allow them to develop without taking them away from nursing and artificially trying to make them into pseudo everything else.

Friday, June 20, 2008 11:22:00 AM  
Anonymous the domus bursar said...

doctor-turned-investment-banker:

Just out of interest, where was your BSc from?

Friday, June 20, 2008 12:29:00 PM  
Blogger Fat Lazy Male Nurse said...

doctor-turned-arrogant-wanker.

I hope you are going to return some of the public money lashed out for your training in medicine. You acknowledge that you have chosen to turn your back on this in order to line your pockets?
On a salary of 200K pa, you could easily afford to pay back 50K a year for 10 years, that should even things up a bit.
Didyou get a little bravery badge for turning your back on public service and sucking at the tit?
And, were the nasty nurses horrid to you? Is that why you had a tantrum and threw your dummy out the pram?

Friday, June 20, 2008 1:15:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

re: names of professions....

...this is what galls me so much about Dr C's hatred of the term "Health Care Professional". Imagine an ideal world where no-one tried to do any job for which they were not qualified, but where a team of people with a variety of educational backgrounds and qualifications got on with addressing people's needs. These people might be registered medical practitioners, nurses, OTs, physiotherapists, radiographers, clinical scientists, biomedical scienists, arts therapists...the list is pretty long, even if you include only the statutory regulated titles. The public needn't worry about the exact background of the person they are speaking to.

OK, so this is utopia, and if there is a suggestion that people are doing things they are unqualified for then knowing their qualifications is relevant. My interpretation is that "HCP" is used in Dr C's world invariably to mean "not doctor doing a job which should be done by a doctor". And I had to bite my tongue last week at someone's description of the "nurses" discussing the sex of the foetus at ultrasound.

Bu hey, if we were less specific, and referred to EVERYONE (medics included) as HCPs, then these wars about what we call ourselves to the public go away. And we can still argue all we want about who does which particular job, and whether there is extension of skills or quacking going on. But we don't need to worry about what the public know us as.

And, incidentally, if I (as a physicist) have a PhD in physics, and am employed as a physicist in the NHS, I'm going to call myself Dr Scientist, thankyou very much. I would suggest the same about anyone who has a doctorate relevent to whatever they do. I won't describe myself as a doctor, and nor would I anticipate anyone with a doctorate doing so.

Scientist
(soon to no longer be employed by the NHS either!)

Friday, June 20, 2008 1:24:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

While I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the name calling argument, I'm pretty sure that you'd be miffed if a nurse was suddenly foisted on your medical physics department and told she could do your job. The danger is that there is no end to the de-skilling. Now we have Health Care Assistants (or auxillaries as we used to call them) running nebuliser clinics and we're having the "assistant practitioners" foisted on every department. It's essentially a simple and cheap way of running a service with underqualified people. Call me old fashioned but I do not want my X-rays done by someone with nothing more than an NVQ or some cobbled together foundation degree.

Friday, June 20, 2008 2:25:00 PM  
Anonymous E said...

Kris,

I expect your training was a lot better than mine (standards do vary) but I have to say my nurse training was pretty dire. I learnt nothing of any use and at the end of three years the A4 file of notes and that I had amassed I threw away. (I probably worked harder for my O levels) Hard subjects such as anatomy and physiology were avoided altogether (probably because the nurse tutors/ lecturers did not understand these subjects themselves) in favour of soft subjects such as “communication skills” and ethnicity/ diversity studies with the result that I rely on my A levels in Biology and Chemistry for my knowledge in these area. Some of my nursing student colleagues were barely literate or numerate and the thought of those twerps becoming Doctor Nurses and taking over the care of real patients is quite frankly appalling. That was in the early 90’s and I would like to say that nurse training has improved since then but the education I have received at two different institutions of higher education in the fifteen years since qualifying (I qualified in the early days of P2000, remember that?) has not been an improvement.

All this leaves me with a dilemma, because I am one of those nurse practitioners that Dr C rails against (although I don’t call myself one). Like you I agree that extended roles for nurses can and often are a good idea but there has to be a limit and Doctor Nurses are I think extending the remit of nurses too far even for me. I wrote about recognizing professional boundaries over at Mental Nurse if you are interested.

http://www.mentalnurse.org.uk/2008/04/02/unskilled-and-unaware-of-it/

The trouble with discussing this subject with Dr C is that it is a bit like discussing the issue of Transubstantiation with a Catholic there is no possibility of compromise, no middle ground to be found (despite the fact that Dr C himself employs a diabetes nurse specialist in his own practice). Any suggestion that nurses can carry out tasks some of which were in the past done by Doctors is met with calls of “Burn the heretic” or “kill the blasphemer”. It would be nice if some common ground could be arrived at but I fear that positions have been taken and lines have been drawn in the sand.

http://www.mentalnurse.org.uk/2008/06/04/the-new-priesthood/

Just remember some very clever and learned men once thought that the world was flat. Having an IQ in treble digits does not always make you right.

I fully intend to continue my education and if I should one day be awarded a Ph D. then I would only use it as a courtesy title and never in a hospital. I think it is frankly dishonest and confusing for the patient the way clinical psychologists with a Ph D style themselves “Doctor". Any further training I intend taking will be as far away from any school of nursing as I can get and will be strictly for my own benefit.

Friday, June 20, 2008 3:01:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

FLMN

I hope you are going to return some of the public money lashed out for your training in medicine. You acknowledge that you have chosen to turn your back on this in order to line your pockets?
On a salary of 200K pa, you could easily afford to pay back 50K a year for 10 years, that should even things up a bit.
Didyou get a little bravery badge for turning your back on public service and sucking at the tit?
And, were the nasty nurses horrid to you? Is that why you had a tantrum and threw your dummy out the pram?

----------------

It looks like it's you throwing your toys out of the pram!

The fact that the doctor turned banker has left medicine could perhaps be the way that he was treated by the NHS? I admit it's a shame that public money has been 'wasted' but the waste is due to the shoddy treatment of doctor (and while we're at it all HCP's or whatever). If his work and efforts had been respected and rewarded appropriately then i suspect he'd still be in the NHS. I think he got fed up of the managers, being screwed over and the shit the NHS covered him in. The government should make an effort to retain doctors, not give them a 4,800 pound paycut when you've just come out from uni, try to underpay you, make you pay for courses that you need yourself to be competent, the list is endless. Don't be so fucking naive FLMN he's got no right to feel guilty. Getting out for a decent quality of life is not selfish, it's an act of self preservation and maintenance of sanity

Friday, June 20, 2008 3:57:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I'm pretty sure that you'd be miffed if a nurse was suddenly foisted on your medical physics department and told she could do your job."

Not only would I be miffed, but it would be illegal for anyone but a registered Clinical Scientist to do my job. We've only just got that protection, so in a sense we're going in the other direction to many other professions.

"Call me old fashioned but I do not want my X-rays done by someone with nothing more than an NVQ or some cobbled together foundation degree."

Actually, I would be quite happy for a radiography assistant to do, for example, my chest X-ray or mammogram. They are both very specific examinations for which training can be provided (and I have been involved in doing so). In my experience, the image must be checked by a radiographer before the patient leaves the department. My assessment of education in the UK is that there has been horrible 'qualification inflation' - what once was a BSc is now an MPhys, an HNC has become a degree and so on and so forth. Today's top radiography assistants have a not-dissimilar education to the radiographers of yesteryear, I suspect.

Scientist.

Friday, June 20, 2008 4:08:00 PM  
Blogger Fat Lazy Male Nurse said...

anon 3:57, I think it's more than a shame that public money was wasted on training this greedy banker. I think it's a fucking outrage.
That's my tax, your tax, everybody elses tax - pissed up the wall.

Friday, June 20, 2008 4:44:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

flmn - you may dislike our banker friend; such is your perogative. But none of us in the NHS are bound to stay. It is for those recruiting to funded courses to attempt to choose those inclined to stay.

If you want to see taxpayers' money wasted on education, look at the now-degree courses that, for example, radiographers are now required to take. I know of many student radiographers who got in through clearing, who didn't really know a lot about radiography before they ended up on the course, but who wanted to do 'a degree' and have been encouraged to do said degree by a government whose stated aim it is to get 50% of us into higher education. Few in that position stay in the NHS once they have their BSc. As I said above - qualification inflation.

Scientist

Friday, June 20, 2008 5:13:00 PM  
Anonymous dino-nurse said...

I am in the monority...a nurse with a science degree (physiology and biochemistry) and also a science based PhD (biochemistry..and yes it was a lab based project and I was viva-ed by respected scientists in the field). I have even worked as a lab based post doc until I missed working on the wards too much. I also have friends in nursing who have science degrees first and then went into nursing as a second career. I am still ward based, take my share of bedpads etc and am proud to call myself a nurse. What annoys me is the attitude that my career choice is somehow second best to being a medic. More to the point, where do medical students get the attitude that they are so much better than other students? As a post-doc, I had to teach them and I can honestly say that they were by far the least interested bunch that I had to deal with. Granted biochemistry may not set your world on fire but you need the basics to understand the clinical stuff later on. One of my best friends is a physicist...he graduated with a first and then did a PhD...having worked in university labs for a while he decided to retrain as a medical physicist. I shared a house with him whilst he was doing his PhD. Another housemate( now a surgeon) was in his fourth year at the time. He insisted on calling his fourth year project his "thesis" (this was just a three month project that was equivalent to the lab projects that all BSc/BEng students have to do- my PhD ran to several chapters, had published papers in it and took over 3 years to obtain the lab results). He then went on to point out in great length that his BM was so much harder than all other degrees and that although a PhD is a doctorate it was obviously peanuts in comparison to being a medical doctor. Really? At his wedding, he even went so far as to not put "Dr" on the place card for the physicist....yes, it is an honourary title but just how petty can you get? He has deeper issues, I'm sure. Having had the bad luck to work with him when he was an SHO there were times when I could have drop kicked him. I want to think that he is not typical. Unfortunately although many of the docs that I work with are alot more personable, they still feel the need to "get one over" whether its me or one of their medical colleagues. Why oh why do they have to be like this? It makes ward rounds embarrassing.
I spend enough time trying to get the SHOs to tidy up after themselves as it is...I have no problem setting up a trolley for say a central line or an arterial line but why should one of my nurses (or me) have to clean away your sharps for you?

Friday, June 20, 2008 6:23:00 PM  
Anonymous chizzy said...

dino-nurse, haven't you realised yet? It doesn't matter how intelligent we were and what accolades we achieved before we became a nurse. The moment we get our certificate, they become automatically C's and D's at gcse. You obviously can't be that smart if you don't understand that...

Friday, June 20, 2008 7:25:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, the obvious solution is not to use all these pretentious titles but actually call people by their job. So
Nurse FLMN
Dentist Dentist
Banker Dr DTIB (PhD)
Physician Crippen

OR we could just stop using the word Doctor in two senses. I think that in most other languages there is a difference. For example, in Chinese there is no confusion between Western medical doctor, Chinese medicine practitioner and PhD. But the funny thing is that nurses are addressed with an archaic word for "Miss" or "Girl" (which now also has a secondary meaning of nurse).

Anyway, about 30 years ago I attempted to address a dentist "Doctor" and he replied "please sir, it's Mister".

Friday, June 20, 2008 10:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Ellie said...

It makes me so sad to see all this hatred of doctors here. I'm leaving med eventually too-when I get home from NZ I'm training for something else as I can't deal with it anymore. I'm from the Rep. of Ireland, where we don't have the EWTD, and I just can't physically cope with 40 hour shifts as part of a 100 hour week anymore. I was physically sick at times, nearly crashed my car several times driving home after these shifts, and two SHOs that I knew killed themselves within a year of each other, both after extended shifts with no sleep. It's a physically crucifying job, nevermind the mental aspects. I don't think I'm a bad person for leaving, I know my health suffered doing those hours and taking the sleep deprivation and dehydration. As for people paying back the taxpayers-well we pay tax too you know. I have never heard that doctors were exempt from taxation. The current system we have is one where working people pay tax that funds things like healthcare and education. I have probably put a student or two through college myself by now with my taxes. If someone does a course, works in it, and finds the conditions are horrendous, he/she is entitled to change. This investment banker must be paying a fair whack of tax. I'm thinking of primary teaching myself-kids are nice to work with, and I will get a chance to see my family and husband and the people I love for a change. Life is short-shorter than you realise, and I realise that after watching so many people pass away, that you should do something that makes you happy, and allows you enough time to spend time and care for your loved ones. Bravo to this investment banker, he will be able to spend his weekends with his chidren, his nights in bed with his wife, and will make more than enough money to take great care of his parents in their old age, and he will likely live long enough to see his kids grow up and not die of a stress induced heart attack, a car crash after too long a shift. All things he could not have if he stayed in med. I can't believe he gets condemned for that.

Saturday, June 21, 2008 1:11:00 AM  
Anonymous Ellie said...

The animosity of the nurses towards the docs on here is frightening too-I don't think I'd cope in the UK! Here in NZ they really are angels, cliche'd as that sounds. They never would call you for a catheter without having set up first, they know you're busy and having to run between wards and they don't seem to see it as some sort of resentful subservience, but as helping out a busier team member to get things done for the patient faster.They have immense and well deserved pride in their jobs. And on nights they look after you so well-one gave me a cup of jellybeans to carry around with me the other night when I was busy as I'd done a cannula on a patient that wasn't mine to look after. She wouldn't actually LET me clean up the stuff-I tried but she grabbed it off me! They don't see helping out a busy SHO as anything other than doing a good job for their patients and cooperating with a team. In turn we do them favours when we can, and at the end of the night shifts especially, we all say thank you to each other. I'd never met nurses like this before. I wish the rest of the world was like here! Quite often they don't get their breaks at night either-at home they would take them no matter what was happening. But this is how it should be-no resentment between groups of professionals looking after sick patients. Incidentally, what the doctor says goes here as regards patient care. They are well aware that you carry the can, and everyone accepts that you have that responsibility and hence all decisions rest with you. There is no resentment at all about this. It's not to say anyone orders anyone around or anything like that, I always check first if they'd prefer an IV or an IM for someone, when they'd like me to do something, what they think-but ultimately if something different has to be done they know it's up to the doc. And yes we have nurse specialists that operate within their own area of expertise and do a great job, but they don't dictate all patient care, just advise on their aspect of it. It works beautifully.

Saturday, June 21, 2008 1:26:00 AM  
Anonymous hehehe said...

"why should one of my nurses (or me) have to clean away your sharps for you?"

My, do you nurses have a chip on your shoulders!

.. and yeah, yeah, yeah you'r the cleverest and the best Dino nurse, now, have you cleaned that tray I told you to clean an hour ago?!

Saturday, June 21, 2008 1:37:00 AM  
Anonymous the a&e charge nurse said...

Ellie - I totally agree that a 100+hr working week is barbaric but paradoxically the EWTD is the main driving force behind extended nursing roles in the NHS.

I have worked with many Ozzie & NZ nurses in London [and still do] - I must admit that I honestly cannot make the same generalisations vis a vis the doc-nurse relationship that you do [if we compare them as a cohort to say African, Filipino, or UK nurses].

You may remember Tony Wright, a 58yr old who suffered an MI after a junior doctor gave him an insulin overdose ?

x2 nurses tried to dissuade the exhausted junior doctor until she insisted on giving the fatal injection herself.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-401670/Exhausted-junior-doctor-kills-patient-massive-overdose.html

In such circumstances a nurse could not offer a defense of "following doctors orders" since we are ALL individually accountable for any act or omission [which MUST be justifiable both clinically and theoretically].

Following the logic exhibited by some of the poster here [see hehehe, above] nurses should be prepared to play 'hunt the contaminated sharp' which might be found lurking amongst the debris after a frantic trauma call - such uninformed opinions are almost invariable associated with clinicians with virtually no practical experience.

Clearly young 'hehehe' found little use for PPD sessions as a medical student ?

Saturday, June 21, 2008 10:13:00 AM  
Anonymous harassed lecturer said...

O dear - more silly doctor/nurse arguments, sparked off by the usual ignorant bollocks from Crippen.

This blog gets ever more tedious to read. I wish you'd drop the bitter ranting and concentrate on real issues. When you do things like tackle the madwives of Kent, that's when you're interesting and relevant. Moaning on about nurses getting PhDs just makes you sound like a miserable old bastard who should be pensioned off.

Saturday, June 21, 2008 10:52:00 AM  
Blogger Zarathustra said...

If anyone wants to argue that "doctor" only means medical doctors, I fear there may be some clinical psychologists out there who might raise an objection.

That said, although I've no objection to nurses getting a PhD, if I obtained one myself I'd probaby avoid calling myself "doctor" on the ward, just to avoid confusion, and also because I'm not keen on people waving their academic credentials around for kudos' sake.

Zarathustra RMN, BN(Hons), MA, BA(Hons)

Saturday, June 21, 2008 11:06:00 AM  
Anonymous hohoho said...

"You may remember Tony Wright, a 58yr old who suffered an MI after a junior doctor gave him an insulin overdose ?"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/7255232.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/7226836.stm

Go get me that cleaned tray now nurse, NOW

Saturday, June 21, 2008 8:58:00 PM  
Blogger Zarathustra said...

Go get me that cleaned tray now nurse, NOW

Any doctor who asked me, as a nurse, to clear the sharps off the tray for him, would be told to clear it his bloody self.

Imagine how the following three ingredients could combine to cause a serious incident.

1. A patient with Hepatitis B
2. A used syringe
3. An arrogant SHO who assumes that someone else will clear away aforementioned syringe for him


Hehehe/Hohoho, I certainly hope you're trolling for the sake of it, because if you're not, then your sharps practice is unsafe.

Saturday, June 21, 2008 9:51:00 PM  
Anonymous Ellie said...

what generalisations are those? Ok, I've met one or two that perhaps weren't the friendliest people in the world, but my overall impression is really really positive and they certainly have made what could have been quite a hard job in a different country very manageable and easy for me. I'm grateful to them. The only point I was trying to make was that going by the comments on this thread it probably isn't like that in the UK-God knows it's not in Ireland. Incidentally quite a few Kiwi docs I have spoken to were treated less than professionally in the UK when they worked there. There appears to be an atmosphere of hostility that just doesn't seem to exist here. Granted the conditions everyone is working under in the UK at the moment probably act as a pressure cooker for everyone, so tensions are more likely too. It's such a shame your government are such a bunch of control freaks.
Btw I didn't mean to imply or agree that nurses should clear up other people's sharps-that's just wrong. Sharps disposal is serious business, and the person who knows where the sharp is should dispose of it. In my example I tried to clean it up and she wouldn't let me, despite me going- "mind-there's a sharp in there". She was just trying to help because I'd done the cannula since I happened to be there, saving her having to page the doc who covers that ward and she was being nice. I would never expect anyone to clear up sharps I had used. Apologies if it came across that way!

Sunday, June 22, 2008 2:22:00 AM  
Anonymous the a&e charge nurse said...

DohDohDoh - perhaps your 'tray' obsession is clouding your ability to understand even simple issues, so I'll try to spell it out for you......

The link highlighted earlier is not intended to denigrate a doctor who made a mistake [because we ALL make mistakes], no, it merely highlights the fact a nurse cannot blindly follow a medical order, if it entails giving a large bolus of actrapid, say.

In any functional team we all try to look out for each other [see Ellies x2 posts about how this principle is applied to the shop floor].
If a doctor makes a pescribing error and this is pointed out by a nurse, the usual response is 'thank you' [because no harm has been done to the patient], rather than "do what I tell you, and NOW" [which reflects the level of insight you seem to have into doc/nurse working relationships].

The tone of your post suggests that you are very inexperienced [and probably rather scared too] I daresay if you bother to look back at them, but in a few years time, they will make your toes curl with embarrasment much as mine did today ?

Sunday, June 22, 2008 9:15:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"
"Registered Medical Practitioner" is the term protected under the Medical Act 1983.

Before I started writing this, I thought a good idea would be to suggest adding "RMP" to one's preferred post-nominal qualifications.

But it sounds far too much like "Our MP" for my liking.

Lord Darzi RMP

Chris BSc MD MRCP(UK)"

RMP sounds more than a little too close to Royal Military Police.

Sunday, June 22, 2008 3:18:00 PM  
Blogger It's fun to bank said...

I feel it might be confusing for a nurse with a PHD to call themselves 'Doctor' in a ward environment, even though I have never experienced any problems with clinical psychologists being confused with medical doctors. Medicine and nursing are two different things, with different areas that require research. It has been mentioned that nursing is about caring and not about curing and I completly agree. We need original research and academic nurses to be able to carry out this reseach.

Sunday, June 22, 2008 9:21:00 PM  
Anonymous city slicker said...

"PhD Graduates for Market Risk.
London

Company: Selby Jennings
Salary: £150,000

A tier 1 U.S investment bank is looking for a market risk manager for their structured credit team. You will join a team of risk managers sat on the dealing floor responsible for all market risk management and risk methodology for the structured credit trades. Candidates should be recent graduates of an MSc or PhD preferred within a highly analytical and quantitative subject such as Physics, Computer Science or Financial Mathematics."

Would a medic be considered suitable for this kind of work? I hardly think so.

Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:12:00 PM  
Anonymous superburger said...

only valid reason for nurses/physios/pharmacists/medical physicists not calling themselves 'Dr' whilst dealing with punters is that patients might be confused. That, i'm afraid is societies fault for assumin Dr=physician cf. chemist=pharmacist

A PhD is a PhD is a PhD, whether it is in nursing, particle physics or portrayals of lesbian sexuality in nineteeth century Latvian Cinema.

The point (which I worry on occasion that many physicians fail to grasp) is that a PhD requires (i.e you wont get one without it) genuine research which contributes new knowledge to the field. The research councils generally expect that work as part of a PhD is published in peer reviewed journals.

I will raise my head above the parapet and say there is a decent analogy between traditional medical and traditional legal training.

A undergrad degree and postgraduate practice allowing basic competance(sp), followed by a long period of supervised professional training until the dizzying heights of the trade are reached.

Once can study for a PhD in law - just as one can study for a PhD in medicine but they are research quaifications (taken for love, not money?) not professional qualifications.

All physicians must conclude that their primary qualifications (i.e. the ones that let them touch the public) are, essentially, professional qualifications (difficult, intellectually demanding, and stressful as they no doubt are to obtain.) i.e you can't do your job without them

As for a comment way back when about Imperial requiring BBC to study physics. I would suggest that demand for medical school places is higher than that for physics. A mediocre doctor lives a far nicer life than a mediocre physicist. (remember too, a 30 year post-doc in 'hard' science with a dozen papers in top journals might only be scraping 30-35k and be working 16 hour days.)

Is being the big swinging dick of the medical school any more or less intellectually demanding than being the big swinging dick of a physics department?

Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:15:00 PM  
Blogger Fat Lazy Male Nurse said...

I'm a small swinging(on a warm day)dick in a nursing department. It can be pretty intellectually demanding. Any study/research at PhD level, be it in a hard subject, such as physics. Or a soft subject such as nursing requires a great depth of understanding, analysis and rigour. Often for little reward at the end.

Tuesday, June 24, 2008 2:47:00 PM  
Anonymous Ellie said...

"city slicker said...
"PhD Graduates for Market Risk.
London

Company: Selby Jennings
Salary: £150,000

A tier 1 U.S investment bank is looking for a market risk manager for their structured credit team. You will join a team of risk managers sat on the dealing floor responsible for all market risk management and risk methodology for the structured credit trades. Candidates should be recent graduates of an MSc or PhD preferred within a highly analytical and quantitative subject such as Physics, Computer Science or Financial Mathematics."

Would a medic be considered suitable for this kind of work? I hardly think so.

Tuesday, June 24, 2008 1:12:00 PM"

Paradoxically, though, city slicker, medics would be at least as competent in this field, every day in any medical field you deal with risk assessment, statistics and probablities. Which if miscalculated or misjudged, lead to much bigger fuckups than some financial shit going down. I mean, risk managment is a huge HUGE part of medical practice. Also, the ability to work under intense pressure and make decisions quickly in stressful situations is generally considered desirable in the financial/investment sector. I don't quite see where you're coming from with regard to a medic not being considered suitable to be honest, as quite a lot of financial advisors, investment bankers, risk assessors etc that I know of happen to be former docs, and we always knew it was a viable alternative if we got too cheesed off. Several SHOs that I know of went into various financial jobs. They appear to be raking it in. And most find it infinitely less stressful....
The thing is, up until quite recently in Ireland where I trained, you had to do Physics, Chemistry and Applied Maths for a year at college as part of the medical degree-perhaps that is why the transition to financial jobs that require hard sciences has been so easy for us across the pond?

Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:22:00 AM  
Anonymous Ellie said...

"probabilities" even! hopefully none of these jobs require good typing..... :)

Thursday, June 26, 2008 6:24:00 AM  
Blogger Daniel said...

John you haven't really responded to the suggestion that we avoid this confusion by using the word 'physician'.

GPs in particular (with humbler origins as surgeon-apothecaries in the UK) seem very reluctant to call themselves 'physicians' but are happy to be known as 'Dr' (despite this historically being a title only for physicians rather than surgeons or apothecaries). Where's the logic?

The medical 'class system' lingers on, but the fact is if you have the medical degree MB BS, you are a physican (and a surgeon).

A more pragmatic reason is that as the UK adopts US innovations such as PAs and nurses with Doctorates, using the p-word is the only option to clarify who is a physician and who is not.

Sunday, August 17, 2008 11:42:00 AM  

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Dr John Crippen's weekly diary. The trials and tribulations, the pleasures and pitfalls of family medicine in the modern British National Health Service.

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