Tuesday, June 10, 2008

Rape victims


Imagine a large, well-furnished room. It is well lit, with no windows. It is soundproof. A psychological experiment is to be conducted. John, a twenty-one year old man, and Mary, a nineteen year old woman, are placed in the room and the door is closed. Eight hours later, the door is opened and John and Mary are interviewed separately and asked to describe what happened during the eight hours in the room. They both give honest and plausible accounts. At least, you think they are both honest but there is a problem. Their accounts are completely different. How do you establish who is telling the truth?

It is not possible.

Change the scenario a little. The room becomes a student bedsitter in a University Hall of Residence. John and Mary voluntarily enter the room together late at night after a party. They have both been drinking. The next morning, Mary leaves the room in tears and tells a friend that John made her have sex against her will. The friend calls the police. John is arrested. John agrees that they had sex, but says it was consensual. How do you establish who is telling the truth?

It is not possible.

To make it more difficult, the “truth” has to be established “beyond reasonable doubt”. Put like this, it is not surprising that it is so difficult to secure a conviction for rape. In the UK, only about 6% of rape cases result in a conviction. These conviction figures cause outrage, and not just amongst women. For no particular reason, the Washington Post has just carried a long article entitled
“In Britain, Rape Cases Seldom Result in a Conviction”
10 to 20 percent of rapes are brought to authorities' attention. According to government figures, 14,000 cases a year are reported and 19 out of 20 defendants walk free. Thousands of victims each year once chose not to go to police because of shame, women's advocates say. Now, the advocates say, the bigger reason is that rape victims feel the system is stacked against them.


The UK Solicitor General,
Vera Baird QC:

"There will never be proper female equality and appropriate dignity afforded to one-half of the population if it's possible to rape somebody and get away with it"
A succinct restatement of the problem which, like the whole of the Washington Post article, offers no solution. The conviction rate for rape may be much higher in the USA (over twice the UK rate) but, as we shall see, this may in fact show that the pendulum has swung too far making some male defendants victims of miscarriages of justice.

From my personal experience of counselling rape victims, I have not the slightest doubt that the system is stacked against them. The police are far more approachable and sympathetic than they used to be, but once the dreaded word “alcohol” appears, they begin to lose interest. Mary may be an attractive teenage girl who was wearing a short skirt and had had two small glasses of wine. She is already at a disadvantage. If Mary has also had a number of previous sexual relationships, she may well not be prepared to face cross-examination. We still cannot tell what went on in that locked room that we originally postulated. Attempts are made to discover what Mary did in the months before she went into the room and thus "predict" her likely subsequent behaviour. Such an examination of previous behaviour is both prejudicial and offensive.

The English common-law system, adopted by so many other countries, is adversarial. In all criminal trials there must be a “winner” and a “loser”. It is like a boxing match. The judge is the referee, there to ensure that the rules of the game are followed. The judges of fact are the jury, who must declare the "winner" making their decision on a “beyond all reasonable doubt” basis. Most members of the jury have probably had sexual experiences whilst under the influence of alcohol that they have later regretted. Mary may say she did not want to have sex with John, but she had been drinking heavily, and went back to his room consensually. The seeds of doubt are sown.

The controversial, adversarial nature of rape cases is not helped by some of the more militant feminists. We looked recently at some of their writings on “obstetric rape”.
I have never been raped, in the sense of that word as most people use it, so I can’t say, “It felt like rape”. But it certainly felt how I would imagine rape feels. And all the ingredients are there: man penetrating woman’s body, woman telling him to stop, man carrying on regardless…. (Debs)

A woman who is raped while giving birth does not experience the assault in a way that fits neatly within the typical definitions we hold true in civilised society. A penis is usually nowhere to be found in the story and the perpetrator may not even possess one. But fingers, hands, suction cups, forceps, needles and scissors… these are the tools of birth rape and they are wielded with as much force and as little consent as if a stranger grabbed a passer-by off the street and tied her up before having his way with her. (
Amity)<>
Sometimes, men get a very raw deal indeed.


Gemma Gregory falsely accused seven different men of rape. Why did she not go to jail?

It is not deemed politically correct to put the case of the male “victims” of rape and so it was good to see a courageous article by an American psychologist putting just such a case. The article is courageous because she is female. She quotes Kathleen Parker:



The assumption of guilt when it comes to males and rape is so entrenched in the American psyche that we ignore our better sense and embrace the righteousness of the mob. The same feminist spirit that successfully fought to eradicate the "she deserved it" attitude toward rape victims inexplicably found acceptable an equally unjust "of course he did it" attitude toward men. (Kathleen Parker)

Dr Helen Smith : When False Rape Allegations Ruin a Reputation
What is the solution? Is there a way to achieve a fair result in rape cases? Can we ensure that women who come forward will be treated fairly and sympathetically and neither man nor woman will start at a disadvantage? I do not believe this will ever be possible with the English (American) common law adversarial systems. Our initial “closed room” experiment shows the impossibility of making a decision on a “beyond reasonable doubt” basis. We could reduce the standard of proof to an “on the balance of probabilities" level but that would bring more injustice. More men would be convicted, but many would be convicted unfairly. I suggest the best solution for rape cases is to move from our adversarial system to a more inquisitorial system. A judge experienced in rape cases sitting with independent expert assessors, all capable of reviewing the evidence impartially. And both the “victim” and defendant should be anonymous until the decision is made.

It would not be perfect. The world-wide conviction rate is still far too low. In Islamic countries a rape victim is still quite likely to end up being punished for promiscuity.

Labels: , , ,

57 Comments:

Anonymous Fx said...

The assumption of innocence in law arises from the historical basis of the crown being police, prosecutor, judge and jury. People died to achieve this basic right of all accused to be judged innocent in law until found guilty by a jury of their peers.

Unfortunately, the flip side of this is that their accusers tend to be considered guilty until/unless proven innocent.

With women, it's worse because the culture still assumes that "she must be asking for it" if she wears anything even faintly attractive.

Debs and Amity appear to have had some very bad experiences and are left feeling violated and powerless ... and they need some kind of symbol to hang that experience from.

The two, though clearly distressing, are not the same. After all, bad medical experiences can be dealt with in the civil courts in which the burden of proof is one of "balance of probabilities" rather than "beyond reasonable doubt". And a bad medical experience, as you point out, find appearance, sexual history or alcohol relevant.

It's very naughty of you, Dr C, to equate the two. There really is no comparison.

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 6:05:00 PM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

I don't think it is naughty at all. It's the whole point of the steaming vitriol that surrounds these cases; so many people, men and women, approach rape from a rabidly biased political standpoint that it is very difficult for woman who have been raped to get justice


John

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 6:21:00 PM  
Anonymous Fx said...

The point is, Dr C, that these women are traumatised. You have no excuse ..

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 6:30:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I thought rape was one of the few crimes that requires no witness corroboration?

In any other situation I am sure the CPS would go nowhere near it - boiling it down to a he said/she said impossible situation.

Doc - you say "The world-wide conviction rate is still far too low.". What Government mandated "target" would you like to see imposed on the criminal justice professionals? Maybe there could be some performance related, box ticking pay scheme - irrespective of the merits of each individual case - a sure fire recipe for success I am sure you will agree.

Until prostitution is legalised I can forsee no improvement.

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 6:46:00 PM  
Blogger jayann said...

"Gemma Gregory falsely accused seven different men of rape. Why did she not go to jail?"

the story linked to in the quotation explains that; she is mentally ill*; the judge said though she will go to gaol if she doesn't comply with the terms of the court order. (*Actually she has a personality disorder, it seems, but has been ordered to have mental health treatment anyway.)

The man who was sacked because of a false allegation of rape certainly has a grievance but NB, the case against him was dismissed, one would think he'd sue his former employers.

I thought rape was one of the few crimes that requires no witness corroboration?

but not the only one, and the reason why witness corroboration isn't required is pretty obvious...

boiling it down to a he said/she said impossible situation.

wrong; the woman will be examined by a doctor, her clothes will be examined.

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 7:45:00 PM  
Anonymous Matt said...

fx said

"The point is, Dr C, that these women are traumatised. You have no excuse .."

These women say they are traumatised. The near impossible job for the Law is to try and assertain if that is the case when often there are no independant witnesses or evidence.

We all do things we regret. We shouldn't expect the Law to sort things out for us afterwards.

Convictions for rape should be made on objective not subjective evidence. The suggestion by some that quotas need to be introduced is ludicrous.

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 7:50:00 PM  
Anonymous Matt said...

jayann

"the woman will be examined by a doctor, her clothes will be examined."

And waht will that prove if one party says it's consensual?

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 7:52:00 PM  
Blogger jayann said...

Is there a way to achieve a fair result in rape cases?

the US system did OK in the case Helen Smith discusses, John.

BTW we all seem to be forgetting men are raped.

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 8:15:00 PM  
Blogger jayann said...

And waht will that prove if one party says it's consensual?

I thought that was a strange question, matt, till I found a case where there was -- the police said -- physical evidence of rape, where the men had argued the activity was consensual, and the case was dropped. (A US case.)

Still, I'd have thought the relation of physical and other corroborative evidence to a claim of consensual sex was fairly clear.

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 8:23:00 PM  
Blogger jayann said...

Sorry, an Australian case.

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 8:24:00 PM  
Anonymous ZT said...

What constitutes a rape? This is the real question. Some extreme feminists say any sexual contact between an man and a woman is rape, because the power of the patriarchy make true consent impossible. Other people say that it wasn't a rape unless the woman was beaten senseless . Some universities in the USA have defined consensual sex as rape if the woman had consumed any alcohol, because this supposedly tainted 'voluntary' consent. This resulted in cases where a woman went to a party, got drunk, and had sex. She regretted it the next day, and accused the man of rape, even though he had done nothing coercive. The whole subject has become bogged down in ideology, and justice has been forgotten.

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 8:37:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Matt: "These women say they are traumatised."

That's a very offensive statement, Matt. How do you think a woman who has been raped feels after such an experience?

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 9:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Matt said...

anonymous

""These women say they are traumatised.""

My point is that saying you are traumatised by any event does not prove anything. I am not trying to downplay anything. I am trying to demonstrate how difficult it is for a third party.

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 9:35:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"" (*Actually she has a personality disorder, it seems, but has been ordered to have mental health treatment anyway.) ""


Can any doctor here explain what treatment is actually available for PD patients.

What on earth would you do in N Ireland if Gemma Gregory lived here (note PD is expressly excluded from the Mental Health Order (NI 1986)

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 10:51:00 PM  
Anonymous Nutty said...

Anon 10.51 - I don't think you're going to get an answer to the question about treatment without specifying which PD. Different PDs are treated differently.

Tuesday, June 10, 2008 11:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Shea said...

Wow talk about flogging a dead horse Dr C. Those "militant" feminists are the ones who managed to get marital rape onto the statute books in the first place and were regarded as equally ridiculous at the time. The whole point of "obstetric rape" which was missed in the first discussion is even if the obstetric care received is standard, the subjective interpretation of a woman receiving it might be that it was horrific.

Doesn't that neatly illustrate the whole crux of the matter regarding rape? So much hangs on the interpretation of the victim (male or female). With regard to the consumption of alcohol, I think if you can't tell whether a woman or a man is giving consent because they are too drunk, then simply walking away might be advisable?

(* nice example of the "false accuser" by the way. Note that she is mentally ill and none of the 8 accusation resulted in prosecution. As for "getting a raw" deal, a rape conviction doesn't seem to have hurt the careers of Roman Polanski or Mike Tyson, but hey their victims were only "wimmin" so never mind.)

One way of upping the conviction rate might be to allow for disclosure of the defendant's previous convictions for rape or sexual assault. If we allow for the sexual history of the victim to be paraded through the courtroom a quid pro quo seems in order. It might also have stopped such notable examples as Ian Huntley from then going on to commit murder.

The real problem as the whole debate on "obstetric rape" showed is that society has a huge problem believing women in the first place. Legal reforms aside, I don't see how we are going to change that.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 6:41:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Matt: "My point is that saying you are traumatised by any event does not prove anything" - take your comment away from the context of rape and, for example, the context of war and think about it....

...what about the PTSD victims? Their experiences don't prove anything?? Not that the experience they went through was awful beyond words, in some cases??

I think you're wrong. I think the fact that the victim is traumatised by an event DOES prove that the event was sufficiently awful for that individual for it to have caused them damage.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 7:57:00 AM  
Anonymous the a&amp;e charge nurse said...

shea - isn't there a danger that the term rape will become virtually meaningless, (or at least impossibly subjective) if we accept that unpleasant medical procedures, and sexual assault are one and the same thing ?

Any woman consenting to such a procedure should receive adequate information about what the procedure entails (except in life threatening emergencies, perhaps) in order to arrive at an informed decision.

I do not dispute different women have entirely different psychological expriences after such procedures but GENERALLY this should not be a matter for the courts ?

You also seem to advocate a complete abdication of personal responsibility when it comes to the volatile combination of sexual behaviour and drug/alcohol consumption.

Are you seriously suggesting that following a nights boozing/shmoozing then voluntarily ending up in someone's bed that the other party is a rapist if sex occurs, assuming of course that neither party has said 'NO' at any point ?

I am glad that abusive husbands are getting their come uppance, but punishing doctors (for tyring to help patients), or those incapable of clairvoyance, i.e. knowing how somebody will interpret a particular experience following morning, is an entirely different matter ?

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 8:12:00 AM  
Blogger Tomrat said...

Shea,

I dont think that disclosure of previous crimes would be a good idea; the individual is being tried for THAT crime - in the same way that alcohol or promiscuity could taint a jury against the victim so too could disclosure for previous crimes for which the defendant has paid his dues.

Dr. C.

In truth I dont think there is a right answer here; rape is a shitty crime with a very real victim, very real scars and very real long term impacts - to attempt to manually "upp" the conviction rate can only result in more miscarriages of justice. An inquisatorial system also has major problems in terms of causing miscarriages; anyone attracted to this post will in all likelihood have a ideological axe to grind against one or the other people(s) involved - the reason we have a randomly selected jury for such incidents is so we can ensure fairness and a blind(ish) judicial system - sure there will be miscarriages but fewer than would be expected with a pointed inquisition.

I would suggest personally that rape convictions carry a much, much higher sentence; a very high minimum sentence coupled to a roofless maximum sentence would do more to deter rapists and increase conviction rates when victims know that the rapist will suffer greatly.

On the counter side crying wolf as Gemma Gregory did, ruining multiple lives, should be made a much more serious crime; mental health assessment yes but put her in jail to prevent her hurting anyone else.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 8:33:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Another example of how badly written the blog is and how cruel and insenstive people can be towards those who have suffered. You have NO idea what it is like or you would have not even considered writing anything - you are harsh and when you don't know the facts its best to keep quiet. Go back to sleep and when you wake up consider that people have feelings and YOU are responsible every day for deeply offending many people..........such a caring dr hahahahahahaha!!

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 8:42:00 AM  
Anonymous Removing Black Hair Dye said...

Sad but true, I have seen that a large number of women acusing men oof rape are not victims but men after their lies.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 9:01:00 AM  
Anonymous Mr Ian said...

There are many interesting points arising.
I'm very interested in the notion of man & woman get drunk - end up consensually going home together - sex happens - oops.
I've done that and regretted it the next day.
I wasn't forced into it - but I wasn't making good decisions at the time.
People who go out to get drunk are responsible for making plans to not drive home drunk. Why are they not responsible for making sure they don't sleep with someone too?
Only in evidence of severe physical aggression or (specific) illicit drugs (eg GBH) can it be clearly construed as rape on a case by case basis.
Previous convictions are good predictors and, tho they may bias people's opinions - they are meant to because the likelihood is higher - and anyone already convicted of rape ought be taking more care of how they engage in sexual relations.
Those who falsely cry rape are as difficult to find as those who were raped. It is indeed a he said/she said argument.
In some way a compromise, there ought be provisions such as in domestic violence: Where burden of proof cannot be satisfied, adversaries can be ordered - without admissions - to certain restrictions; eg avoid each other. This does not satisfy any retribution of the alleged vistim - but where proof is not satisfied, the alternative is the case is dismissed altogether.

For those who make repeated false allegations - the retribution is already there and, IMO, is worse than prison - mental health diagnoses.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 9:35:00 AM  
Blogger Evan Price said...

There is no evidence that an inquisatorial system of justice would result in either a fairer system of prosecutions or that it would result in more convictions.

The problem is that where you have two people saying opposing things, a jury, conscious of the difficulties that would arise if there was a conviction, will inevitably give the defendant the benefit of any reasonable doubt ... why is this?

Part of the difficulty in answering this questions lies in the fact that no-one is permitted to ask questions of a jury about their deliberations ...

Having said that: in an inquisatorial system - take the French system with an inquiring Magistrate acting as the control - the Magistrate authorises the investigation and both parties have access to the file of 'evidence' that is gathered (subject to certain restrictions). No-one can be questioned unless the Magistrate authorises it. When it comes to the trial, the Judge with conduct of the trial reviews the evidence and listens to argument, subject to strict limits on time.

Here, in our adversarial system, the evidence is actually tested in court by cross-examination - something that is not a nice experience for people acting the part and something that will be all the more difficult for actual victims of crime.

Both systems have their faults - but on balance, I would not throw out our system simply because in some cases the conviction rate is claimed to be lower than in other jurisdictions. There are all sorts of reasons relating to social issues in individual countries that can give rise to such differences.

In some states, the Americans, for example, retain a system of testing the evidence before the trial - a grand jury. Here the test is to see if there is sufficient evidence to put before a jury. Some of the evidence is tested by cross-examination and witnesses may practice their cross-examination with advocates for prosecution and defence. Some of this would breach our laws on a fair trial.

Ultimately, the problem for anyone trying to establish a run a criminal justice system is that the power of the state is arrayed against an individual member of the community of that state. It is for this reason that we ended up with the 'golden thread', for example. It is for this reason that we have strict laws on detention before charge; on the conduct of prosecutions; and on the disclosure of evidence in criminal trials. To some extent it is also for this reason that the needs and wants of the victim of a crime can sometimes seem to be of lesser importance.

What we need to do is to continue the training of advocates - retaining restrictions on the power of an individual accused to cross-examine particular types of victims - enhancing the support systems in place for victims and above all else stop the senseless increase in the body of criminal justice legislation to meet yesterday's headlines so that sensible improvements and enhancements can be undertaken - almost all of which will not require any legislation at all. Finally, we need to ensure that advocates are properly paid for the work undertaken (whether in court or not) and ensure that the budget for legal aid in criminal cases is not at risk by being ring-fenced.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 11:38:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gemma Gregory has been assessed with PD and is now hopefully receiving the proper care (but that's another matter). Her 'victims' have been exonerated. John Hogan killed his son and seriously injured his daughter but was given care and sympathy for his mentally unstable condition.

Obstetric rape does happen of that I've no doubt. Rape and assault within gynaecology also happens and some drs have been imprisoned for it - one extreme example being the butcher of Bega. Many women have been left traumatised and mutilated by their horrific experiences. And all in the name of medicine.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 11:40:00 AM  
Anonymous Matt said...

Anonymous

"I think the fact that the victim is traumatised by an event DOES prove that the event was sufficiently awful for that individual for it to have caused them damage."

I agree. Two individuals can have the same experience. One is traumatised by it and the other is not.

The law must be objective not subjective.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 1:19:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Matt - and in order to be objective, surely the law needs to consider the effect of the crime on the victim? Surely this is a basic principle of any crime against a person??

To say that being traumatised by a rape experience doesn't enter the equation because some victims aren't affected (or do not appear to be) is not taking the full extent of the crime into consideration IMHO. Those who are traumatised need that fact recognised and acknowledged - or should they be 'pulling themselves together'?

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 2:26:00 PM  
Blogger jayann said...

anonymous, yes. (I think Matt's confusing support for victims and punishment of convicted rapists.) Matt, there's a legal definition of rape that does not include 'traumatised by'. Different men and women rape victims will suffer a different amount of trauma independent of the type of rape, therefore, the traumatised should receive support appropriate to their needs, not to the type of rape. Also, of course, some rapes will be regarded as more severe than others -- see e.g. Louisiana Law on aggravated rape -- regardless of the amount of trauma exhibited by the victim.

(HTH)

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 3:38:00 PM  
Anonymous Aphrodite's AK47 said...

For the 'birth rape' mob:

Your problem is that you all seem to want this 'dream birth experience'. It's not about your babies, or their health, but your 'experience'. Because of advances in maternity care mothers no longer need to die trying to birth a baby 'naturally', children (I am told) frequently live as long as 5 or six years now. Women don't have to have 12 kids just so that they'll be guaranteed at least one survivor. This has made you all complacent.

Just like the anti-vax nutters and their complacency with regard to infectious childhood disease, ("Oh but measles will just make little Johnny a bit spotty, where's the harm?") you romanticise pregnancy and birth. You plan for your 'dream birth experience', perhaps at home surrounded by your family, or in a birthing pool, or under a tree in the bluebell woods, serenaded by pixies. Your baby will slide out gently, caught by a wood nymph or your tabby cat, and you will immediately lift him to your breast and allow him to suckle, and bask in the attention and glory. There will be photos, video, a spot on youTube your flickr album etc Beautiful.

Now back to reality. I need to capslock this to get it into your heads, THE WELLBEING OF YOUR BABY IS MORE FUCKING IMPORTANT THAN THE 'HORROR' OF SOMEONE TOUCHING YOUR NO-NO PARTS AS PART OF THEIR JOB.

There. Got it off my chest. I see it all the bloody time, "Oh I'd never have a caesarean at any cost" or "I refuse to set foot in a hospital" or "Blah blah blah something about the patriarchy".

Well guess what sisters? *cough*
Pregnancy and childbirth can be a dangerous, brutal process. Lives are lost on both sides, and always will be, even after 'textbook' pregnancies.
If you decide to start a family, you must accept that there is always a risk of your 'dream birth experience' not going to plan. You must enter into a mental contract with your baby (because it really isn't all about you) to ensure that he gets whatever care necessary. Accept that or be damned. As traumatised as you may feel you have your babies and your lives. You are still here to bitch and moan about it on the internet, to cry 'RAPE!', and to slag off the medical professionals who may have saved the lives of you and your children. You'd be the first in line to litigate if your child was dead.

I actually think you lot, and the anti-vaxers are a good thing. You will serve as an example. Like Icarus you fly too close to the sun, and will pay the price.

Classing every trauma as a 'rape' weakens not only your case, but the case of actual rapes. Touched during childbirth? Rape. Dodgy bloke on the bus looks at you? Rape. Tesco all out of soy milk? RAPE RAPE RAPE. It's bandied around far too much. Regardless of the dictionary definition, the legal definition is nonconsensual sex. That is why marital rape is still rape, but 'obstetric rape' is not, and will not ever be tried in a court as 'rape' unless your doctor starts to fuck you during labour. Even in that case the circumstances are irrelevant, it's still just plain ol' rape.

Oh, and to those who feel 'offended' or 'hurt' by Dr C's stance, if your lives are so easy that the worst thing that happens to you is someone sharing an opinion that you disagree with on the internet, then I envy you.

You don't have to read it you know, there are vast repositories of pictures of kittens, literary discussions, porn, recipes, in fact... almost anything you could think of! Rather than wading through stuff that you know will upset your delicate little selves, and deliberately searching for stuff that does so, why not distract yourself in other ways? It's much, much healthier. Focus on the good things in life instead of dwelling on the negative.

May I recommend http://www.cuteoverload.com

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 4:16:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Aphrodite's ak47 - gosh! I hope you feel better now that's off your chest!!

I'll let you into a secret - the birth of my second son was almost EXACTLY like you describe - he DID slide out gently, I pushed twice and out he popped! All bloody and messy. 6 mins of second stage and it was all over. About an hour or so of feeling bloody uncomfortable, then the six mins and there he was. Doddle. He was a VBAC.

Regrettably, not everyone has a good experience and there are women out there who have had extremely BAD, traumatic experiences. In today's world, I would not expect a Dr to conduct an intimate examination without consent or to continue with one when a woman has asked him/her to stop. I woulod expect a Dr to be able to explain the reasons for an examination in a manner which the patient understands.

There is a great deal of arrogance and resentment in your post. Women today are better informed and want to make choices about how they give birth. You sound like you'd like to take these choices away.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 4:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can I recommend the inquisitorial style of court for this crime.
I was the victim of a rape in Spain, and was relieved to find I only had to appear once in court the next day and had only perfunctory questions from the magistrate and both sets of lawyers.
The UK style cross-examination really does repeat the trauma - raking over hideous memories months later is very damaging to the state of mind.
Matt - Psychological trauma is very real, and why should the perpetrator not be punished for causing it. To use an analogy, if you beat someone up you can be charged with GBH. If you beat someone up (with identical force) who has, say, haemophilia, and that person dies, the charge is manslaughter or murder. PTSD is just as much an injury as a broken leg.
As for the sentences, castration without anaesthesia for most, but my view is probably very biased. Why should they not reflect the damage done to the victim?
Those who cry wolf also deserve censure, but until Homo sapiens has a different mating process (sperm bank, anyone?) women are entitled to the full protection of the law. Knowing the attacker was punished has been very important to me.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 5:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Matt said...

jayann & anonymous

You are either missing or deliberately misreading my point, which is that just because somebody is traumatised by an event, it does not neccessarily mean that that event was wrong or that someone is to blame.

This was responding to Fx's post "these women are traumatised. You have no excuse .."

You wake up in a strange bed with a strange person and its obvious you've had sex. You can't remember the night before as you were drunk. You can react in a number of ways. You can say "bloody hell, I'm not going to do that again". You can say you were raped. Who knows what actually happened? Possible nobody. The other party can't remember either. So how can the Law decide in any fair way?

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 5:09:00 PM  
Anonymous Aphrodite's AK47 said...

Anon-
I'll let you into a secret - the birth of my second son was almost EXACTLY like you describe - he DID slide out gently, I pushed twice and out he popped! All bloody and messy. 6 mins of second stage and it was all over. About an hour or so of feeling bloody uncomfortable, then the six mins and there he was. Doddle. He was a VBAC.

I didn't say it couldn't happen, it would be lovely for all births to be like that, but that's not the case, and that wasn't my point. I'm not against VBAC either, that's how my brother arrived and he's fine. My point was that too many women expect birth to be just like that. They romanticise it, and don't give a second thought to alternative outcomes, which is incredibly unhealthy.

Regrettably, not everyone has a good experience and there are women out there who have had extremely BAD, traumatic experiences. In today's world, I would not expect a Dr to conduct an intimate examination without consent or to continue with one when a woman has asked him/her to stop. I woulod expect a Dr to be able to explain the reasons for an examination in a manner which the patient understands.

Pregnancy carries with it risk. It is up to women to be fully aware of that risks before entering into it. Pregnancy is usually a voluntary experience, if you're not prepared to deal with every possible eventuality (examinations, meds, foetal death, miscarriage, any number of complications) then don't do it. Easy. It's not compulsory. I know that if I take drugs there's a chance I could have great fun, or a chance I could get ill or die. If I choose to have cosmetic surgery I know there are risks, I could be scarred. If I choose to buy a house I know there's a need to deal with estate agents (aaaargh).

If intimate examinations are necessary to ensure the life of mother and child, then what are doctors to do? They are in a bind. Examine, despite maternal distress, deliver a healthy child and be termed 'rapists'. The alternative is to withhold examination and treatment, wait around for a few hours for mummy to do it her own way, deliver a dead baby, and be sued for medical neglect.

There is a great deal of arrogance and resentment in your post. Women today are better informed and want to make choices about how they give birth. You sound like you'd like to take these choices away

I resent women co-opting the experience of rape victims. I resent women entering into a voluntary state (pregnancy) then bitching and screaming "RAAAAPE RAAAAPE" when they don't have picture-perfect experience. Is the baby not enough for them?

You don't seem to realise that the only reason women have these choices anyway is due to medical advances. Pregnancy can be monitored from the start, foetal development can be tracked, we can be quite sure of how well a baby is doing. I think homebirth can be a great thing, but not without a backup plan. Natural is good, but if you insist on an entirely natural route, no intervention or medical assistance, then you must accept that there is the potential for the ultimate natural event - death.

I want total reproductive freedom for all women, but we, as women, need to accept that with freedom comes great responsibility, for our lives and the lives of the children we bear. The trend of dismissing doctors out of hand because 'mother knows best' is appalling. Medicine is not bad, doctors are not evil. The world would be a very different place with medicine. If women keep crying "RAPE" every time something happens that they don't like, then no-one will want to practice medicine for being placed in the same category as a sex offender for doing their job.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 5:39:00 PM  
Anonymous Ruth said...

Matt I agree that the law can't decide in any fair way what happened in the example you give. However, I suspect strongly that the scenario you give rarely leads to a woman reporting rape to the police.

Both myself and some of my friends have been raped. None of us reported it to the police as we didn't think there was any real chance of conviction. This was not because we were drunk and couldn't remember what had happened.

Two real examples are, spent evening with boyfriend, had a meal and a glass of wine. Later in the girlfriends flat, boyfriend wants sex, girlfriend doesn't, boyfriend holds her down against her expressed wishes and rapes her.

Woman staying in boyfriends flat. He leaves for work in the morning. Lodger enters bedroom of sleeping girlfriend, holds her down and rapes her.

The chances (I think) of these real incidents leading to a conviction were extremely slight. Thus both women decided not to report these rapes. In both cases the rapes could easily be presented as consensual sex.

In neither of these cases were the women in any doubt at all what had happened.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 5:43:00 PM  
Anonymous Aphrodite's AK47 said...

Argh, last para. should contain "The world would be a very different place without medicine"

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 5:43:00 PM  
Blogger jayann said...

I didn't miss your point, matt, but am puzzled by your argument/s here.

just because somebody is traumatised by an event, it does not neccessarily mean that that event was wrong or that someone is to blame.

I agree. But you seem to want to say more, and indeed, you have.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 5:45:00 PM  
Anonymous Matt said...

Ruth,

I agree with you. Both the cases you describe are rape.But what can the Law do? Unfortunately it's reasonable doubt, not benefit of the doubt.

The scenario I have described has led to court cases but maybe not convictions.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 5:56:00 PM  
Blogger Rob Clark said...

Maybe you’re reading into Matt’s posts something that isn’t there then as that’s exactly how I read them.

You can accept someone’s word that they have been traumatised by a particular event without necessarily accepting that someone else was therefore at fault in any way.

I’ve been traumatised by my young son’s continuing ill health, but that doesn’t mean I blame anyone for it.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 5:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

(I'm the anon 5.05)
By trauma I mean an event significant enough to cause PTSD.

Yes, it can be due to bad luck (eg natural disasters or illness) but if it's due to the actions of another person then they deserve punishment.

Ruth - I don't envy your situation. This is why Dr C's suggestion of inquisitorial courts seems more appropriate.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 6:28:00 PM  
Anonymous Matt said...

Anonymous 5.05

"By trauma I mean an event significant enough to cause PTSD."

Even this is ambiguous I'm afraid. Two individuals can be involved in the same event. One is OK and the other has PTSD. The end does not neccessarily define the means!

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 7:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rob Clark: "I’ve been traumatised by my young son’s continuing ill health, but that doesn’t mean I blame anyone for it." - That's because there is noone to blame, which is a very different situation to having been raped, when there is very definately a perpetrator.

Matt: "Two individuals can be involved in the same event. One is OK and the other has PTSD." - I agree - but why shouldn't the one who IS a PTSD sufferer not have their distress acknowledged??! Why shouldn't the offender be presented with the impact of their crime on the victim?

I agree with Ruth, I don't think the situation you describe gets reported all that often.

Aphrodite - do you suggest that hospitals should, as a matter of policy, give all women delivering in their unit information which states that:
- we will perform examinations we consider to be necessary with or without your consent
- we will decide the manner of your delivery

I agree that bringing a baby into the world has great responsibility but you appear to want women to surrender that to her Doctors.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 7:48:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think that once a baby becomes viable, the obstetrician has as much duty to the baby as to the mother. That means that if it's the mother's preferences versus the baby's welfare, the baby's welfare wins, and if the mother doesn't like what happens, then tough. Don't have babies if you don't accept that their welfare comes before your feelings.

Wednesday, June 11, 2008 10:00:00 PM  
Anonymous Aphrodite's AK47 said...

Anon - at 7:48Aphrodite - do you suggest that hospitals should, as a matter of policy, give all women delivering in their unit information which states that:
- we will perform examinations we consider to be necessary with or without your consent
- we will decide the manner of your delivery


OK, what about this is so hard? Bold this time, because you seem to be immune to caps.

Women need to realise that obstetricians have a duty to the babies as well as the mothers. Women also need to realise that it is IMPOSSIBLE to perform certain life-saving examinations WITHOUT putting anything into the vagina. This is not rape unless the doctor/hcp is actually FUCKING the woman. Rape=nonconsensual sexual intercourse.

Hospitals should be telling women that pregnancy is their choice and theirs alone, and that if they can't cope with any odds at all of ANYONE touching them, then they need to not get pregnant in the first place. They also need to get women to understand the the decision to carry a pregnancy to full-term makes it about the BABIES, not the mothers. They need to inform the mothers that if it's necessary to save hers, or the baby's life, then a c-section or extraction by forceps or suction will be performed. If the mother absolutely does not want that, then she and her partner/next of kin need to sign a waiver refusing medical intervention, and waiving the right to litigate in the event of maternal/neonatal death or injury.

If mothers choose to carry to term, fully laden with the full facts about just what can happen (as they should be, unless they're total bloody morons), and not just with some 'dream birth experience' planned in their heads, then they'll know that sometimes intervention is necessary.

Is that clearer?


Anon at 10pm - thanks. Finally, someone who sees that it's not all about the 'experience', it's about the end result.

Thursday, June 12, 2008 2:50:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Aphrodite - IF, and it is a very big IF, I had had any meaningful contact with the Obstetrician whose care I came under, I would agree with some of what you say.

You don't say if you are UK or US based. My experience as a woman having had an EMLCS due to an undiagnosed breech and being 39 for my next child's birth, was that there is very, very little Dr input into a UK 'normal' birth.

On the big day, I saw a SpR for about 10 mins and he did an Ultrasound to check the baby's position, as I had asked for this. He mistakenly wrote in my notes that I was not in labour, when things were progressingly along very nicely thank you on their own.

I don't know where you get you thoughts that women don't believe that intervention is necessary sometimes. However, what I will say is that UK care for mothers to be is very 'hands-off'. I think I had about 4 or 5, 10 min appts with a midwife and no classes were offered for my second child.

If you want women to be better informed and to be fully aware of all the dreadful things that MIGHT go wrong, then the model of care needs to be changed. There is very little opportunity for education and I only saw my Consultant twice because I requested those appts, which didn't address how labour would be managed or what would happen if things didn't progress normally.

Ref your last comnment - which is extremely simplistic, there are many women who have been traumatised by their first birth experience and then choose not to have another child - I was almost one of them. "Oh, don't worry dear, you've had your bits mangled and you've an awful scar across your tummy, but never mind, you've got your baby..." doesn't really cut the mustard.

Thursday, June 12, 2008 9:48:00 AM  
Blogger jayann said...

then they'll know that sometimes intervention is necessary.

the accounts that led to the original discussion of this were not by women who objected to necessary intervention.

Thursday, June 12, 2008 3:05:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"THE WELLBEING OF YOUR BABY IS MORE FUCKING IMPORTANT THAN THE 'HORROR' OF SOMEONE TOUCHING YOUR NO-NO PARTS AS PART OF THEIR JOB."

Technically, until the baby is born it has no rights.

I know that most OB's are trying to avoid lawsuits when they hack away at the labouring woman's genitals like so much jungle overgrowth, but I think I speak for most mothers when I suggest that it would be nice if b*llshit comments like the one above were not repeated by thoughtless maternity healthcare professionals. And they are. Usually just before invasive and traumatic procedures begin. No wonder so many women suffer birth trauma.

I'm sure there are women out there who don't give a fig about the health of their children, but they certainly are the minority. It would be nice if this was assumed until proven otherwise by all involved in caring for labouring women. That way we can avoid women feeling pressured into procedures they later dub "rape".

Crippen, do me a favour will you? Next time you meet a woman who has been seriously upset by diffcult birth, please refer her to this organisation: http://www.birthtraumaassociation.org.uk/
Given your thoughtless anti-feminist statements, I just don't think you're the right person to deal with so delicate a situation, k?

Thursday, June 12, 2008 3:54:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd never heard of 'Birth rape' before and it does seem slightly ludicrous.
That said I recall *very* clearly my midwife 'sweeping' my vagina during birth to make things easier. At the time I had no idea she was going to do it and indeed she never told me she would. I 'sort of' gathered what she was doing, and now that I know a bit more, (I was very naive!) I am grateful as she probably prevented me from tearing. BUT - I didn't consent, I didn't even know what exactly or why she was doing it.

Interesting situation.

Probably a bit off topic but that ya go!

Thursday, June 12, 2008 9:39:00 PM  
Blogger Cruella said...

Oh please! Firstly the number of falsely reported rape cases is way lower than the number of unconvicted rapists out there. If we are accepting no system can be perfect and trying to do the best we can then there should be less protection for men.

And secondly pregnant women are horribly mistreated during birth. Of course sometimes intervention is necessary but there is no excuse for intervening without first discussing the procedures and options with the woman in question.

Friday, June 13, 2008 5:54:00 PM  
Anonymous Aphrodite's AK47 said...

Anon at 9:48 I don't know where you get you thoughts that women don't believe that intervention is necessary sometimes.

I've met them. 'Mother knows best', and burbling on about Gaia, the moon, feminine intuition etc etc. One was a friend of mine until she went batshit crazy and decided that her fifth kid would be birthed by her, with no pre-natal tests, no back-up plan, because her GP had suggested a caesarean. (History of pre-eclamptic toxaemia, gestational diabetes and group b strep). Her herbalist provided 'care' throughout the pregnancy. As we all know women's intuition is ok for character judgements, or how long we can pass off reading blogdoc as 'research' (heh!) but not a situation like that. The outcome? A kid that can only ever function as a decorative object and needs 24/7 nursing care (but they have him on an astounding herbal regimen....), and a mother with a vaginal fistula, kidney failure, and insurance premiums of $1500 a month. In the other two cases there are a couple of dead babies, a dual maternal/neonatal death, and a lot of broken hearts all round.

Sadly there are many, many women who believe that their sex means that they are the absolute authority on all things maternal. Go back through John's entries and you'll see many examples.

Oh and as for education before pregnancy, that's not the health services job, it's up to the prospective parents. There's plenty of literature out there, even books on tape/cd or dvds for the illiterate. You can't blame the NHS for everything, or expect them to hold your hands through every decision.

Oh and I know that birth can be traumatic, it's a brutal, bloody, terrifying experience sometimes, and I don't doubt that women suffer greatly. What I object to is the use of 'birth rape' or 'obstetric rape' to describe what they're feeling. Their traumatic experience due to being in a situation of their own making cannot be compared to rape, will never be tried as rape, and crying 'rape' is demeaning to actual rape victims.

Fair enought to say "I felt violated" or "I've been raped and this hurt me more", but not to say "I was birth-raped" or "I'm a victim of obstetric rape". That's going too far. You cannot be a victim of an impossible crime, nor can you brand all doctors as rapists because your labour was painful and bloody, instead of being a Kodak moment.

Friday, June 13, 2008 5:59:00 PM  
Blogger NHSPenPusher said...

Oh please! Firstly the number of falsely reported rape cases is way lower than the number of unconvicted rapists out there. If we are accepting no system can be perfect and trying to do the best we can then there should be less protection for men.

I think if you apply a bit of apagogical reasoning to that concept it becomes quite clear how unjust it is.

Friday, June 13, 2008 7:12:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Aphrodite: I wasn't referring to education BEFORE pregnancy, I was referring to education DURING pregnancy... In the UK, this is provided, or said to be provided, by the NHS. (Part of N.I.C.E. guidelines).

My view is that care and guidance is best provided by the professionals who will care for the pregnant woman... otherwise all kinds of middle-class mums to be will pitch up with whichever book they choosen and find that hospital policy is completely different to what they've read....

...Hospitals do vary in the care they provide and the protocols they follow. One such difference would be induction of a woman who had previously had a LSCS. I was told that it they did induce women with a scar, whereas another local hospital would not, due to the possibility of rupture.

I guess from your comments you are US-based, care in the UK is very different.

At the end of the day, women have choices, you may not agree with them, but that's what living in a democratic society means.

Friday, June 13, 2008 7:56:00 PM  
Anonymous Aphrodite's AK47 said...

I'm not an American, I'm British and live in the UK. For the millionth time I'm not for denying choice, women can do whatever they want as long as they hold themselves responsible for their own actions. That means no crying rape over a bad birth, and no suing anyone when they give birth to a damaged kid after they've ignored medical advice.

And I'm sorry, but again, it is NOT the NHS's job to educate you about biology, pregnancy and childbirth. It freaks me out when pregnant women think that the umbilical cord is connected to the inside of their navel, or discuss what they'll do when 'my placenta burst' (they mean when the waters break). Multiple women have told me they won't have sex during pregnancy in case the baby swallows sperm, one woman I tested had chlamydia and gonorrhea at 32 weeks pregnant. How? She'd dispensed with condoms as she was 'already pregnant' and had used the previous 28 weeks as a sexual free-for-all. That doesn't begin to cover all of the ludicrous stuff I've heard. You may have been lucky enough to only encounter intelligent middle-class types, or sensible women who know that women's intuition isn't a replacement for sound medical advice, I haven't been that lucky.

Saturday, June 14, 2008 2:42:00 AM  
Blogger Archivist said...

I am a U.S. attorney, and I started a Web site to raise awareness about false rape accusations. Objectively verifiable data suggests that at least 9 percent and probably closer to half of all rape claims are false. Yet the crime of making a false rape report has become so embroiled in the feminist sexual assault milieu that it has been largely, and improperly, removed from the public discourse about rape. Sexual assault counselors often disingenuously refer to false accusations as a "myth." Denigrating the experience of the falsely accused by dismissing their victimization as a myth is not merely dishonest but morally grotesque.
http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/

Saturday, June 14, 2008 5:47:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Aphrodite: I think you'll find that if you read the NICE guidelines on antenatal care, it specifically states that education to pregnant women should be provided by classes.

If you 'haven't been that lucky' it simply underpins the need for good quality education for women during pregnancy. These women aren't going to go out and buy books and spend the next 7 or 8 months swotting up as you have discovered.

I would also say that protocols get updated regularly and unless you get the most up to date book you can, the information is likely to be outdated.

Monday, June 16, 2008 6:35:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lezer ,Louis kestenbaum,The ODA in williamsburg ny A satmar Chasid is being accused. WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. (AP) - A teenage girl has filed a $50 million lawsuit against a New York billionaire, saying he sexually abused her when she was 14.

Louis Kestenbaum"s attorney says the allegations are false and motivated by money. Kestenbaum is also the CEO of Fortis properties and the ODA a goverment funded organisation in the williamsburg section of Brooklyn NY

The girl, now 17, claims Louis Kestenbaum invited her to his Florida mansion in 2005 to perform a massage for $300. The lawsuit, filed in federal court, claims he demanded she remove her clothes, then sexually assaulted her.

The girl, her father and stepmother are seeking more than $50 million.

Joel kestenbaum the son of Louis kestenabum had no comments.

Wednesday, June 18, 2008 4:13:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A片,A片,成人網站,成人影片,色情,情色網,情色,AV,AV女優,成人影城,成人,色情A片,日本AV,免費成人影片,成人影片,SEX,免費A片,A片下載,免費A片下載,做愛,情色A片,色情影片,H漫,A漫,18成人

a片,色情影片,情色電影,a片,色情,情色網,情色,av,av女優,成人影城,成人,色情a片,日本av,免費成人影片,成人影片,情色a片,sex,免費a片,a片下載,免費a片下載

情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣

A片,A片,A片下載,做愛,成人電影,.18成人,日本A片,情色小說,情色電影,成人影城,自拍,情色論壇,成人論壇,情色貼圖,情色,免費A片,成人,成人網站,成人圖片,AV女優,成人光碟,色情,色情影片,免費A片下載,SEX,AV,色情網站,本土自拍,性愛,成人影片,情色文學,成人文章,成人圖片區,成人貼圖

情色,AV女優,UT聊天室,聊天室,A片,視訊聊天室

一夜情聊天室,一夜情,情色聊天室,情色,美女交友,交友,AIO交友愛情館,AIO,成人交友,愛情公寓,做愛影片,做愛,性愛,微風成人區,微風成人,嘟嘟成人網,成人影片,成人,成人貼圖,18成人,成人圖片區,成人圖片,成人影城,成人小說,成人文章,成人網站,成人論壇,情色貼圖,色情貼圖,色情A片,A片,色情小說,情色小說,情色文學,寄情築園小遊戲, 情色A片,色情影片,AV女優,AV,A漫,免費A片,A片下載

Thursday, February 12, 2009 4:11:00 AM  
Blogger bobo said...

This is the latest and hottest ghd styler ever. If you need a ghd hair straighteners, this is a must buyghd hair straighteners,cheap ghd hair straighteners,pink ghd hair straightenersghd straightenersComme vous pouvez le voir, il s'agit d'une paire de chaussures shox classiquepink ghd hair straighteners . Si vous souhaitez poursuivre la mode, nike shox NZ sont votre meilleu…"Cette paire de Nike Shox Torch est chaud en maintenant la demande.nike chaussurestn chaussures

Monday, March 16, 2009 1:52:00 PM  
Blogger fine said...

gi情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,按摩棒,跳蛋,情趣按摩棒,充氣娃娃,保險套,飛機杯,潤滑液,情趣內衣,性感內衣,g點,持久液,按摩棒,跳蛋,情趣按摩棒,充氣娃娃,保險套,飛機杯,潤滑液,情趣內衣,性感內衣,g點,持久液,按摩棒,跳蛋,情趣按摩棒,充氣娃娃,保險套,飛機杯,潤滑液,情趣內衣,性感內衣,g點,持久液,按摩棒,跳蛋,情趣按摩棒,充氣娃娃,保險套,飛機杯,潤滑液,情趣內衣,性感內衣,g點,持久液,按摩棒,跳蛋,情趣按摩棒,充氣娃娃,保險套,飛機杯,潤滑液,情趣內衣,性感內衣,g點,持久液,按摩棒,跳蛋,情趣按摩棒,充氣娃娃,保險套,飛機杯,潤滑液,情趣內衣,性感內衣,g點,持久液,按摩棒,跳蛋,情趣按摩棒,充氣娃娃,保險套,飛機杯,潤滑液,情趣內衣,性感內衣,g點,持久液,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣商品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,票貼,票貼,二胎,二胎,借款,借貸,借錢,週轉,酒店經紀,酒店經紀,酒店經紀,酒店經紀,酒店經紀,酒店經紀,酒店經紀,酒店經紀,酒店經紀,酒店經紀,酒店經紀,酒店經紀,酒店兼差,酒店兼差,酒店兼差,酒店兼差,酒店兼差,酒店兼差,酒店兼差,酒店兼差,酒店兼差,酒店兼差,酒店兼差,酒店兼差,酒店兼差,酒店兼差,酒店兼差,酒店打工,酒店打工,酒店打工,酒店打工,酒店打工,酒店打工,酒店打工,酒店打工,酒店打工,酒店打工,酒店打工,酒店打工,酒店打工,酒店打工,酒店上班,酒店上班,酒店上班,酒店上班,酒店上班,酒店上班,酒店上班,酒店上班,酒店上班,酒店上班,酒店上班,酒店上班,酒店上班,酒店上班,暑假打工,暑假打工,暑假打工,暑假打工,暑假打工,暑假打工,暑假打工,暑假打工,寒假打工,寒假打工,美容整形,整形,雷射美容,臉部整形,雷射整形,整形外科,微整形,醫學美容,臉部整形,雷射整形,整形外科,微整形,醫學美容,臉部整形,微整形,美形,身體整形,美容整形,美容,雷射美容,美形,身體整形,美容整形,美容,整形手術,美形,身體整形,整形手術,整形論壇,牙齒整形,整形診所,整形,整形論壇,牙齒整形,整形診所,整形,雷射美容,整形論壇,整形診所,雷射溶脂,飛梭雷射,微整形,拉皮,抽脂,近視雷射,隆乳,隆鼻,變性,雙眼皮,眼袋,牙齒,下巴,植牙,人工植牙,植髮,雷射美容,膠原蛋白,皮膚科,醫學美容,玻尿酸,肉毒桿菌,微晶瓷,電波拉皮,脈衝光,整型,整型,白蟻,黃金回收,黃金價格,黃金價格顯示板,外勞,人力仲介,看護,人力仲介,看護,外籍新娘,大陸新娘,越南新娘,大陸新娘,越南新娘,婚友社,外籍新娘,大陸新娘,外籍新娘,大陸新娘,外籍新娘

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 10:15:00 AM  

Post a Comment

Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]

Links to this post:

Create a Link

<< Home

DR CRIPPEN'S DIARY

Dr John Crippen's weekly diary. The trials and tribulations, the pleasures and pitfalls of family medicine in the modern British National Health Service.

Powered by WebRing.


Add to My AOL ATOM

Number of online users in last 3 minutes
used cars
Top of the British Blogs Health Blogs - Blog Top Sites  View My Public Stats on MyBlogLog.com Locations of visitors to this page

Powered by Blogger

DK Enhanced

View blog top tags Healthcare 100

Web Hosting Uptime Monitor

    Best Medical Weblog

    Best Literary Medical Weblog

    Best Health Policies/Ethics Medical Weblog

    Google

Powered by Blogger

Subscribe to
Posts [Atom]

View blog authority

-->