Ronald McDonald to take over UK psychiatric services

A fascinating and well written post on Doctors and Nurses from Seaneen, who is 22, from Ireland, living in London and suffering from what she describes as “classic manic depression”. She lists amongst her idols Viv Stanshall, Peter Cook and the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah Band. I feel in tune with her already.
The interface between doctors and nurses is a frequent source of controversy, classically summed up in that hackneyed old phrase “doctors cure, nurses care” and Seaneen’s experiences in psychiatric services suggest she has seen a lot of that precise dichotomy.
She is gently critical of my continuing fight against the dumbing down of the health service because she sees it, as do many others, as a tirade against nurse specialists. It is nothing of the sort. It is a tirade against the inappropriate use of medical and ancillary staff in positions outside their competence. It is a tirade against the government lubricated skills escalator that takes health service employees on a trip to test the Peter principal. It is not just nurses. It is doctors too, none worse than the ridiculous GPwSIs.
Seaneen is not too happy with my use of the word “lard bucket” even though I was referring to Carole Malone, the dishonest, androgynous, publicity seeking, ex lard bucket in the News of the World, and not to a nurse or doctor. I take nothing back. My contempt for Malone in boundless.
Seaneen’s post demonstrates only too well the underfunded twilight world of mental health care. Even though she has a serious mental illness, she is usually only seen by a psychiatrist twice a year. Her care has been handed down the food chain to the less qualified members of the CMHT.
Nurses, then, I think are extremely important in mental health care. For the paranoid, they are not as consistently scrutinising as psychiatrists are, nor as clinical. They’re not there to diagnose you with anything, even if it’s fairly clear that you do in fact have a certain diagnosis. They are just that little bit more human and on your level.I agree with much of that. I am sad that she has had such a poor experience with psychiatrists. As for “tarring people with the same brush” I am not sure what she means. The “cheer up” approach to mental illness has little to commend it. Medication used to treat psychotic illness has side effects and, in particular, weight gain can be a real problem. A lot of sympathy and understanding is required. I’m sorry Seaneen does not mention her GP. Maybe she never sees him. Maybe he/she is not interested in mental health issues. A lot of GPs are not. It is too stressful and too time consuming. It is one of my interests and I spend a lot of time on it. I am therefore particularly aware of the gaping holes in the service.
And, as I said, I think doctors are a massively prejudiced group of people. They see a lot of preventable or near preventable illnesses caused by lifestyle choices so, in my experience, if you smoke or you’re fat, you’re not even worth treating because everything that’s wrong with you is your fault. Tarring a lot of people with the same brush here but if Dr. Crippen can do it, then so can I. In terms of mental illness, I’ve been told in the past to “cheer up”, “stop moping”, “lose weight” and “sleep more”. Easy, innit. (Seaneen)
The government approach to gaping holes in mental health care is to appoint people with little training. The lower the level of training, the lower the level of salary they command. This potpourri of mental health workers seen in the dumbed down CMHT are kind, and well meaning, but their ignorance of matters medical is papered over by giving them pretentious titles. Remember Amy?
I have known Amy a long time, and she will talk to me. So I have been seeing a lot of her recently and I hope I am providing her with some support. But what about the psychiatric services? She has been under their care for years. Which of them is looking after her? No one, really. Starved of funds, the CMHT is dumbed down and not helpful. The government would say I am exaggerating. They would say there are three “health care professionals” involved with Amy. Her CPN, who does see her occasionally. And then there is her “care coordinator” - someone who works in social services though is not a trained social worker. It is a grandiose title and a classical bit of New Labour flummery. Amy is not getting much care, and so little “coordinating” is needed. I have seen Amy more than any other doctor, and no one has ever attempted to coordinate me. Finally, there is Sharon. Sharon works with several “clients” in the same accommodation. She does shopping, and some cleaning, and is usually around to have a coffee if Amy wants to talk. Sharon is kindness itself. She is a patient of mine. She is not a doctor or a nurse or a social worker. She has no qualifications in mental health, and would not dream of making diagnoses or interfering with medication. Because she is the least qualified member of the “team” it is essential in the modern world of New Labour that she has a title. Sharon is therefore Amy’s “key worker.”Psychiatric nurses do of course have some training but, sadly, (and with a handful of notable exceptions) psychiatric nursing does not attract the cream of the nursing profession any more than psychiatry (again with a handful of notable exceptions) attracts the cream of the medical profession. Because of the lack of funding for psychiatric services, these people are trying to fill roles for which they are not trained. Protocol driven, tick sheet medical care is the order of the day. It is not just in psychiatry. Look at this cry of anguish from an American Emergeny Room specialist.
Thus, Amy is a success for the mental health services. She has both a care-coordinator and a key worker. What more could some one with serious mental health problems want? (Amy's story)
Someone like Seaneen needs support from the Consultant Psychiatrist, from the senior registrar, the registrar, and the senior house officer. Most of them have gone, their jobs now done by inadequately skilled but cheaper nurse specialists.
Trouble is, you cannot tell a “nurse specialist” that they are not skilled enough to take over from a doctor. Often, you can’t tell a nurse-specialist anything. They know better. Any attempt to put them right results in a hissy fit. Fingers in ears. “I’m not going to listen, I’m not going to listen”
It is not just happening in the NHS. After eleven years of New Labour, it is happening everywhere. There is an excellent article in the Guardian today about a forthcoming book, The Gods That Failed: How Blind Faith in Markets Has Cost Us Our Future:
It is not just happening in the NHS. After eleven years of New Labour, it is happening everywhere. There is an excellent article in the Guardian today about a forthcoming book, The Gods That Failed: How Blind Faith in Markets Has Cost Us Our Future:
If that sounded an extraordinary sell-out by a supposedly Labour government, it was of a piece with the news on January 28 that commercial companies were for the first time to be allowed to award nationally recognised qualifications based on their own workplace training schemes. In a parody-defying move, the government announced that the first three accredited schemes would be run by the burger chain McDonald's, the airline Flybe and the train track operator Network Rail. The Guardian that day reported: "Staff at McDonald's will gain the equivalent of A-levels in running burger restaurants after the fast-food giant won government approval to become an exam board." (The Guardian)Welcome, senior nurse-specialist Ronald McDonald
Labels: dumbing down, Ronald McDonald









36 Comments:
Thought you might be interested to know that in our PCT a consultant was brought in to analyse the training needs of staff. Everyone was forced to write down all the training they had ever received.
The Consultant after 'analysing' this information has decreed that all clinical psychologists must attend CBT training. Unsurprisinigly the highly qualified psychologists are very unhappy about this.
Nah, none of my GPs have ever been interested in mental health. They have been interested in the weight gain I experienced on antipsychotics. All my visits revolved around that, no matter what I was there for.
I don't even have a GP at the moment. My last surgery unregistered me when I moved. I only moved 5 minutes away but being out of their catchment area means that I am possibly out of my CMHT's area too. My CPN is trying to sort something out but it looks like I'm going to have to register with someone else that isn't in my CMHT.
My GP is brilliant - he spent an hour with me last week as I was feeling v unwell.
That's pretty good in a central London practice, I think!
I'm sad to hear that none of your GP's have ever been interested in mental health. My partner has bipolar and I don't know how we would have coped at times without the support of the GP
"The actual answer to the debate is that *some* nurse specialists/practitioners are doing jobs that would be better done by actual doctors…and *some* nurse specialists/practitioners are working well within their competency and adding genuine value to services. The question is how one distinguishes the two, and you can’t do that in the context of a screaming match."
In what way is that having a hissy fit exactly?
"psychiatric nursing does not attract the cream of the nursing profession any more than psychiatry attracts the cream of the medical profession".
Ouch!
I work as a psychiatry doctor.
I wonder which specialty Dr Crippen thinks attracts the "cream". My workmates are a bright and caring bunch, and seem creamy enough to me...
That Guardian article is so much twaddle, and the book title is so involved with hyperbole that it misses the point.
If we ignore for the moment that blind faith in anything is probably a bad idea, the one thing missing from everything Labour has done are genuine markets.
Take todays news: bringing in private managers to run failing hospitals.
This key to markets is that responsibility to the customer/patient is not optional, if you aren't responsive to their needs your shareholders don't get anything! That new labour don't recognise this, and believe that politically accountable private firms are any better than politically accountable beurocrats is a disaster.
The government is under the mistaken impression that the problems it faces in the public sector are managerial - but they go much deeper than that, and their current efforts at involving the private sector are both confused and unwise.
A letter to the economist last week hit the nail on the head:
"New Labour's stab at 'privatisation' might have kept the name but it has changed everything else. New Labour's Orwellian public private 'partnerships' are more concerned with granting lucrative long-term contracts... often without adequate tendering, usually in a way that conceals prices and suppresses the possibility of competition in the future. Its main objective seems to be to raise revenue without appearing to borrow or levy new taxes."
But then markets and private companies will always be useful scapegoats for the left whenever things don't go quite to plan.
tony said...
"psychiatric nursing does not attract the cream of the nursing profession any more than psychiatry attracts the cream of the medical profession".
Ouch!
I work as a psychiatry doctor.
I wonder which specialty Dr Crippen thinks attracts the "cream". My workmates are a bright and caring bunch, and seem creamy enough to me...
Wednesday, June 04, 2008 3:01:00 PM
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Oops. Yep, I knew I was going to get into hot water on that one. Sad fact is, though, that it is true. The competition to do general medicine, surgery, even general practice now is much much higher than it is to do most branches of psychiatry.
It should not be like that, but it is. Where I work we have just gone over five years with no psychogeriatrician in post : a succession of locums, none of whom were qualified to take the substantive post, and many of whom could not even speak English.
Psychiatry is generally not regarded as an attractive career choice. I wish it was different. But there is not use pretending.
John
Ruth:
I am right in saying the 'consultant' who thought clinical psychologists needed training in CBT was of the management variety?
"Oops. Yep, I knew I was going to get into hot water on that one. Sad fact is, though, that it is true. The competition to do general medicine, surgery, even general practice now is much much higher than it is to do most branches of psychiatry.
It should not be like that, but it is. Where I work we have just gone over five years with no psychogeriatrician in post : a succession of locums, none of whom were qualified to take the substantive post, and many of whom could not even speak English.
Psychiatry is generally not regarded as an attractive career choice. I wish it was different. But there is not use pretending."
I wonder if the reason for this is that there isn't much scope for lucrative private practice in this discipline? I reckon it is; so much for the rationale of your next posting.
I think the problem with the lack of interest in psychiatry is - you need lots and lots of psychiatrists, because mental illness is very common.
You'll get plenty of excellent, motivated doctors applying to do psych.
But the tail-end of intake will be any doctor at all who feels like applying, as there is a shortage, whereas other specialities could decline to take those candidates.
Unfortunately, your postcode decides which of the above you get.
There's a lot in this post, several themes I could wax lyrical on, but the most pressing :
"Psychiatry is generally not regarded as an attractive career choice. I wish it was different. But there is not use pretending."
- Dr Crippen
Absolutely true.
As he's blogged in January this year, on 29-01-08, "Go into any medical school and say to the students “Hands up those who want to be a psycho-geriatrician”. It is not a popular speciality and there are not enough consultants."
It's true.
I teach medical students. Vanishingly few entertain psychiatry.
The job market amongst doctors has been buggered about no end of late, with competition pushing people away from other disciplines, more are looking at psychiatry. Why? Because it's seen by some as an easy option.
An in truth it can be. It's pretty easy to do psychiatry badly. It involves a lot of energy and genuine teamwork (with colleagues, GPs and other agencies) to do psychiatry well. Psychiatrists I know are either passionate and very good, or just coasting and are pretty woeful. As said, it's a lottery who you get.
Private practice can be a lot worse than NHS care. I do no private work. The money, although it'd be welcome (and substantial, roughly doubling my salary), isn't appealing enough to tempt me away from delivery of quality NHS care. Private practice at present simply couldn't compete with the richness of care I can orchestrate from within the NHS.
Evening Dr C
Just a response to this:
Trouble is, you cannot tell a “nurse specialist” that they are not skilled enough to take over from a doctor. Often, you can’t tell a nurse-specialist anything. They know better. Any attempt to put them right results in a hissy fit.
Well, since the "hissy fit" you link to is a comment by me, allow me to first point out that I'm not a nurse specialist and have no intention of becoming one anytime soon. That said, if you're going to call me a nurse specialist, please do so within earshot of my trust's payroll department. I could do with being bumped up a pay band or two.
Now, in the "hissy fit"/comment you link to, the opinion I expressed on nurse specialists was simply this:
The actual answer to the debate is that *some* nurse specialists/practitioners are doing jobs that would be better done by actual doctors…and *some* nurse specialists/practitioners are working well within their competency and adding genuine value to services. The question is how one distinguishes the two, and you can’t do that in the context of a screaming match.
That constitutes a hissy fit, does it?
zarathustra, I looked at the comment -- of course it isn't a hissy fit. (Just to back you up!)
Someone like Seaneen needs support from the Consultant Psychiatrist, from the senior registrar, the registrar, and the senior house officer.
So you are suggesting that every patient should be seen every single time (weekly perhaps, with some of the people I work with)by a Doctor?
useless cpn said...
Someone like Seaneen needs support from the Consultant Psychiatrist, from the senior registrar, the registrar, and the senior house officer.
So you are suggesting that every patient should be seen every single time (weekly perhaps, with some of the people I work with)by a Doctor?
Wednesday, June 04, 2008 8:15:00 PM
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Whilst they are IN PATIENTS they should be seen by doctors more frequently than that.
When they are out in the community (provided they are out because they are genuinely fit to be, rather than out because our toss pot service has turfed them out) they should be seen regularly by their CPN and GP and occasionally by a psychiatric doctor at the hospital.
Of course, CPNs caseloads are too high, a lot of GPs are not interested, and a lot of pscyhiatrists can't be bothered and fob it all off onto the lower levels of the CMHT or, god help us, the Key worker
]
John
Yes, have noticed few of the early yrs students ever mention psychiatry. I think at that stage they think it means the much derided "psychosocial aspects".
Perhaps psychiatry might benefit (in terms of its applicants) from GP training being over-subscribed... I'm trying to look on the bright side.
Mrs Dr Aust always jokes that psychiatry plays a surprisingly large role in general medicine - it's just that a lot of the general medics haven't noticed.
Ha, when I was an inpatient, I met the psychiatrist once. What was great, though, was that he was a day late. I was manic and agitated and desperate to get out. My appointment was at 10am, then 12am, then 4pm, and he never showed up. And, that night, I wasn't allowed anything to help me sleep because it was an admission that I was sick if I took the pills. So I paced the ward for about five hours trying to combat manic energy.
Saw him the next day (was meant to be at 9am, ended up being 1pm) for about 10 minutes. They didn't want to let me out, but did, for a week's leave, then I was discharged.
I think my borough were just shit. The hospital I was in was notorious for being one of the worst.
When they are out in the community (provided they are out because they are genuinely fit to be, rather than out because our toss pot service has turfed them out)
Now, this comment summarises the problem I have with you.
"Toss pot service"? Yes, it's true that a lot of people get discharged from acute psychiatric wards a lot sooner than the optimum time. The trouble is, these wards invariably have a queue of desperately ill people who need admitting, and sometimes this sadly means that other people have to be discharged early. Not because the ward necessarily wants to, but because a brutal lack of resources results in brutal decisions being made.
Do I want people like Seaneen to get a better service? Let me put it this way: Seaneen is a personal friend who I have known, liked and respected for the past 7 years. Of course I want her to get a better service.
I can understand members of the public getting frustrated with the limited amount of help that mental health services can offer, and as a result getting angry. When fellow health professionals like GPs are involved, I expect them to show a little more understanding of the pressures those services are under. So far, you have shown no understanding at all, and that is inexcusable.
Also I can see why people don't want to be a psychiatrist. They're derided as immoral pill pushers because increasingly, mental illness is not seen as real. It's "stress" or malingering, or the blues. I think even in the medical profession there is skepticism on the existence of mental illness.
(Certainly in the medical profession. And very much so in the public and government. Just check out the DWP who are trying to push mentally ill people off benefits).
You're not even allowed to call it mental illness anymore. It's "mental health problems" or "mental distress". And bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, they're "labels", not illnesses. Drives me nuts, if you'll excuse the pun.
"Toss pot service"? Yes, it's true that a lot of people get discharged from acute psychiatric wards a lot sooner than the optimum time. The trouble is, these wards invariably have a queue of desperately ill people who need admitting, and sometimes this sadly means that other people have to be discharged early. Not because the ward necessarily wants to, but because a brutal lack of resources results in brutal decisions being made.
And I assume these people are discharged into Crisis Teams, rather than left high and dry.
And sorry to spam but
I agree with much of that. I am sad that she has had such a poor experience with psychiatrists. As for “tarring people with the same brush” I am not sure what she means. The “cheer up” approach to mental illness has little to commend it. Medication used to treat psychotic illness has side effects and, in particular, weight gain can be a real problem. A lot of sympathy and understanding is required. I’m sorry Seaneen does not mention her GP. Maybe she never sees him. Maybe he/she is not interested in mental health issues. A lot of GPs are not. It is too stressful and too time consuming. It is one of my interests and I spend a lot of time on it. I am therefore particularly aware of the gaping holes in the service.
I was refering to GPs as the prejudiced bunch. It's possibly just been my bad luck but none have cared about my mental health nor listened to any physical woes I have because I was overweight.
As for tarring with the same brush, I meant my blanketing of doctors as prejudiced, and your own views on nurse specialists, whom you seem to generally decry.
As for tarring with the same brush, I meant my blanketing of doctors as prejudiced, and your own views on nurse specialists, whom you seem to generally decry.
*****
Only when they play at doctor, when they should be concentrating on tasks for which the are trained.
John
But it's not the individual nurse specialist's fault, is it? It's not some sort of mentality in them, they're not out to piss you off or belittle you.
You're horribly personal when you criticise the profession, using terms like "nursie", patronizingly insulting their intelligence and capabilities (and constantly referencing medical school, which may be a fair point but there are people who simply can't afford to go to medical school) and telling them to change the bedpans. By saying that you cheapen the profession of nursing, full stop, implying that all they're "good" for is clearing up shit. You don't need to be so personally insulting. You shouldn't be angry at the people in that profession, but at the government who created the profession. The people who are nurse specialists just want to do their job well, even if that does involve "playing doctor", as you see. It isn't their fault that that's what their role can involve.
Yes when I talked about Consultant I did mean a management consultant
Seaneen said...
But it's not the individual nurse specialist's fault, is it? It's not some sort of mentality in them, they're not out to piss you off or belittle you.
You're horribly personal when you criticise the profession, using terms like "nursie", patronizingly insulting their intelligence and capabilities (and constantly referencing medical school, which may be a fair point but there are people who simply can't afford to go to medical school) and telling them to change the bedpans. By saying that you cheapen the profession of nursing, full stop, implying that all they're "good" for is clearing up shit. You don't need to be so personally insulting. You shouldn't be angry at the people in that profession, but at the government who created the profession. The people who are nurse specialists just want to do their job well, even if that does involve "playing doctor", as you see. It isn't their fault that that's what their role can involve.
Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:22:00 PM
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Seaneen, I’m afraid sometimes it IS the individual Nurse specialist’s fault. Some of them are fine, some are not. When they are not, the combination of medical incompetence shrouded in arrogance is unbearable. They are even teaching medical students, can you imagine. I get droves of emails from medical students who are furious/angry/in fits of laughter about it. Can you imagine pilots in training having to go to lectures from air hostesses and baggage handlers?
Yes, I do use the word “nurse” – it is to safe space. Most doctors call them “noctors”; I sometimes call them “quacktitioners”, but that word also covers GPsWIs, a particularly absurd sub-species of doctor. I use the word “nursey” to describe a nurse specialist doing a job for which she/he is not trained and having no insight into the fact that she does not know what she is doing. I use the word deliberately to show my distaste for these people.
We are witnessing the gradual destruction of the NHS. It is turning into a two tier system. Those without private health insurance will see “nursey” and those with private health insurance will see a doctor. There is no area where this applies more than in mental health. I think it is absolutely fucking outrageous that some one with a serious mental health problem like you is not seen regularly by doctors when you are in hospital. When I was doing hospital psychiatry 25 years ago, ALL seriously ill patients were reviewed weekly by the consultant, and with a senior registrar, registrar and SHO on the firm, would have been seen most days by one of the doctors. What happens now in the psychiatric unit which I have to use is that the seriously ill patients are “potted” for a couple of weeks until they have calmed down and then are sent home too early with inadequate follow up by a CPN whose case load it far far too big. I have had patients phone me FROM THE WARD PHONE saying “I am desperately depressed, and I need to see a doctor”; that same patient was advised by “nursey” to phone the Samaritans. FROM THE WARD.
Then you say:
“patronizingly insulting their intelligence and capabilities (and constantly referencing medical school, which may be a fair point but there are people who simply can't afford to go to medical school) and telling them to change the bedpans. By saying that you cheapen the profession of nursing, full stop, implying that all they're "good" for is clearing up shit.”
I don’t insult their intelligence at all. There are some highly intelligent nurses. All I say is that to train as a doctor you need to be more intelligent and better qualified than you do to be nurse. You can get into nursing with 5 GCSEs. To do medicince you would need 10, mainly A stars, 3-4 A levels at high grade A and you would need to pass the BMAT test (have a look at the BMAT test – examples are available on line). It follows from this that the average doctor is more intelligent and better trained than the average nurse. That is a fact of life. I don’t for a moment say that nurses should devote their working day to emptying bedpans …. But now many of these wretched nurse specialists will not do any kind basic nursing care. And so patients are dying of bed sores and starving to death because they are lying in their own shit and piss whilst nursey is pissing of doctors by telling them how to do their jobs.
You are young at the moment and probably can’t imagine being elderly, frail, stuck in a hospital bed, leaking shit onto the sheets. I have patients like that. I have no time for nurses who are too posh to look after their fellow human beings as they used to.
If nursey wants to be a doctor, tell her to get the GCSEs and go to medical school. Yes, it means a big student loan, but it can be done.
“The people who are nurse specialists just want to do their job well, even if that does involve "playing doctor", as you see. It isn't their fault that that's what their role can involve.”
I daresay they do want to do their job well, but that is not the point. They are not capable of being doctors. This is Hospital at Night. Read this:
http://nhsblogdoc.blogspot.com/2005/12/sue-and-dave-and-hospital-at-night.html
http://nhsblogdoc.blogspot.com/2005/12/onwards-and-upwards-with-sue-and-dave.html
Seaneen, part of the problem is that it is not politically correct to suggest that nurses are anything other than perfect; you can slag of doctors, but not nurses. Nurses who do nursing are wonderful; underpaid, overworked and thin on the ground. There is also an assumption that becauses nurses are “nice” and have “more time” than those grumpy doctors that they therefore can do the doctors’ job better. Just as that nice air hostess, who brings you your coffee, is nicer than the pilot and therefore can take over and fly the plane.
Very soon, mental health patients like you who cannot afford to go into the Priory with Gazza will not see doctors at all. It sounds like you never see them anyway. If you did, maybe they would get a better handle on your problems, and be able to help you more, rather than turfing you out of hospital before you are fully back in control.
John
Yes, I like Bill Bailey too – particularly in Black Books, which has to be the funniest sit come since Blackadder
"Some of them are fine, some are not. When they are not, the combination of medical incompetence shrouded in arrogance is unbearable. They are even teaching medical students, can you imagine."
.............
The same can be said of doctors. Regurgitating textbooks and passing multiple choice exams does not make one an intelligent clinician. Let's face it, many doctors would be lost without their own tickbox/NICE guideline protocols and are unable to make even the simplest connections themselves when treating patients.
Worse still, unlike nurses, incompetent doctors are crippled by their own overblown egos. I'd rather be treated by a nurse practioner than an incompetent doctor.
Ps. I'm not a doctor or nurse - I just worked in the NHS for a while.
I have been reading the article and a lot of the comments, and I would like to speak from a service users point of view.
A couple of weeks ago I went to my GP, who was extremely nice and understanding. She said hospitalisation would indeed be an option, and that I could well have BiPolar Disorder. Which, as you can imagine, was a wave of relief both for myself and my girlfriend (who'd been worrying sick).
The Wednesday after I was in a real Crisis, and not really liking the impersonal nature of "giving the crisis team a ring", I made another appointment to see a different GP. He said I'd need to ring the Crisis Team to get it sorted, gave me their number and some diazepam to help me cope with the phone call, then sent me on my way.
The first shock was ringing the team, only to be told that they couldn't do anything unless me GP or A&E referred me!! So my girlfriend took me up to the hospital, and I had an agonising 3 hour wait to get assessed.
This is where I can perfectly relate to the idea of these lesser-qualified people not liking being told what to do, and their answer is final. And despite the fact that merely feeling suicidal is enough for a 999 call (or so NHS Direct tells me), they let me go. Within an hour I'd overdosed on the rest of the diazepam I was given that very morning, and treated like shit. And when it came to seeing the Crisis Team AGAIN 6 hours later... their attitude was "It doesn't matter what you do, we won't help you now, if you do end up killing yourself then tough."
Don't want to go into details of the next week or I could probably write a novel with it, but conversations cropped up like "Well if you're going to kill yourself there's no point us making the appointment is there?" and "Go for a walk, listen to some music, we can't help you."
Thankfully my GP wasn't pleased. And even the psychiatrist, with all his faults and anecdotes he may as well sell in the t-shirt trade and that I could easily have got from someone at the pub, was shocked that the Crisis Team wouldn't help, as they are supposed to offer home treatment and have already had complaints about their attitude to patients.
Hopefully my GP is getting me referred to see a different psychiatrist, and chasing up the Crisis Team for me. A friend of mine that runs a self-help group has also arranged to see the head of acute services in our partnership trust, so maybe I can help get the message through to the bureaucracy.
The saddest things about mental health services (at least in my area) are firstly, I've needed a lot of strength and my sheer stubbornness to get anywhere with them, and this Crisis Team would only get off their backsides to do something when I'd rung my GP or the GP out of hours service. Even doing that has worried me I wouldn't present as a person with a mental disorder, and it upsets me that a person with severe anxiety problems would be left in the dark.
Secondly, it's that people like my girlfriend are considered part of my therapy. While I understand there is certainly a therapeutic benefit in socialising, sports and charity work, I have gone to my GP and through the NHS because they are supposed to be the healthcare system myself and others pay through taxes. I completely disagree that it should be my girlfriend's responsibility instead of a professionals responsibility for my wellbeing when out of care.
It's obvious that the NHS doesn't want to have the burden of mental illness on them anymore, and I think it's a microcosm of all the public services in Britain at the minute. New Labour are turning more conservative than the tories, and it's frightening that we'll eventually end up in a world made up of private profit-seeking companies taking public money to create drive through-psychiatric services. It feels like a conveyor belt already; "a week seeing a specialist, 6 weeks seeing a graduate worker, 3 months seeing a CPN then off you go bye, you should be better and if not then we shouldn't bother with you anymore".
All this makes me want to just go into Medicine as a career, become a psychiatrist and actually do a decent job at it!! Although saying that I don't think you can blame the people working in the system, it's the system itself which is at fault at the minute. And probably the business consultants far away from the realities of mental health services, and pleased that they are meeting their "targets".
any more than psychiatry (again with a handful of notable exceptions) attracts the cream of the medical profession.
Which actually makes a mockery of your 'Doctors are more intelligengt than Nurse' point. More intelligent=able to pass more A levels and get into Medical School, not=actually be any good at being a Doctor.
Hey, the idea of psychiatrist help was not bad, i think it will help.
It seems, Z, that Dr Crappers is unable to comment further on the validity of what is a "hissy fit".
A pilot flies a plane because they are trained to do so - this means they know how a plane works - this is possible.
No one is able to define how mental illness 'works'.
I am therefore unsure as to how Dr C is so sure that medicine is the best intervention choice for mental illness. It is simply the more powerful. Of course, subduing someone's cognitive functioning into physiological submission is one way of 'curing' people.
But to continue your analogy:
A GP flies a mental health crop duster.
A psychiatrist flies a Lancaster bomber.
A mental health nurse flies a Harrier Hawk Jump-Jet.
An approved social worker flies a Citreon 2CV.
Medics have medicinal options for mental health that generally bombard the brain. There is nothing selective or even understood about how they truly work. Those who expand to other psychological techniques such as CBT, psychotherapy, DBT are better trained to provide a multi-faceted assault on the target. But these medical practitioners with special interest are no better trained than nurses who also undertake these extra skills. And it seems Dr C does not think that medics should have 'special interest' training. Ergo psychiatrists should stick to psychopharmacology - and stop dabbling in psychology.
I have many other options in my arsenal for supporting patients suffering mental health problems than a GP does. More than many consultant psychiatrists.
I understand that many psychiatrists *know* what these treatments are - but I rarely meet one who can employ them effectively.
I am not (by pay or title definition) a nurse specialist and I do not wish to attain prescribing powers. I am happy to work with those medically trained in bio-physiology who are happy to prescribe stuff they know nothing more than a 'suspicion' as to how it works. At least they know how to deal with the iatrogenic diabetes, cardiac dysrhythmias, NMS induced cardio-respiratory failure, benzodiazepine dependence/withdrawal, or neutropenia that frequently results.
I am a common or garden Registered Mental Nurse and I too believe in keeping the divide between medical and nursing in my field - not because they know better or are more knowledgeable - but it stops them messing the patients up so much with their pseudo-science.
What does interest me tho is how, when faced with the argument that the medical profession, in Seaneen's opinion, has been pretty unforthcoming and 'clinical' in their approaches to her particular experiences - yet the nurses have been 'just that little bit more human and on your level' (which I'll assume is a good thing) - that Dr C defends his profession by saying that psychiatry only attracts those medically less competent.
Nurses are reknowned as better inter-personal clinicians than psychiatrists. Because they are better trained and experienced at actually dealing with people - whch is nothing to do with lab results and anatomy and physiology.
Psychiatry may be less attractive - as it does not serve the medical model. But those who work within it are no less competent in their field.
I just wish psychiatrists would stick to their own business and stop dabbling in stuff they are not trained or experienced in.
They are drug trolley-dollies - whereas *we* nurses who do the healing are the pilots.
fuck it I have to jump in here even though I said to myself I wouldn't.
"Worse still, unlike nurses, incompetent doctors are crippled by their own overblown egos. I'd rather be treated by a nurse practioner than an incompetent doctor."
Well I was once seen by an incompetent doctor. She was a nurse! I would rather have been treated by a nurse practitioner (who was competent at her job) than this nurse acting as a doctor, who was not competent at the job she was attempting-diagnosing.
When I was in college, about 20 years old at the time I think, I had some very strange dizzy spells at rest. I went up to see the college GP, and as she/he was busy I had to see the nurse practitioner.
She asked me what the problem was, took my blood pressure, and then instantly diagnosed me as having iron deficiency anaemia without even taking more of a history or examining me at all. She explained very kindly and nicely that "We have to eat things like broccoli sometimes even though we don't like them." She was friendly, approachable and motherly.
I was instantly very sceptical, as I love red meat and broccoli, and happened to know my haemoglobin levels were about 14.5 (had bloods recently by GP). I insisted that I've never had a problem with anaemia and I was worried about these attacks, they were interfering with lectures etc. Eventually I persuaded her to let me see the GP.
He was not particularly friendly, warm or reassuring. He never smiled, and did not explain things well. He took a history, listened to chest, back and checked blood pressure, and my eyes.
He picked up a murmur and an intermittent irregular heartbeat and referred me instantly to a cardiologist who did an Echo and Holter and discovered the real cause of my problems. He also checked thyroid and iron levels-my haemoglobin was 14.8, about what I thought it was.
"Nurses are reknowned as better inter-personal clinicians than psychiatrists. Because they are better trained and experienced at actually dealing with people - whch is nothing to do with lab results and anatomy and physiology."
I can't for the life of me understand why people think that to be a good doctor you MUST absolutely be good with people and that is all you need. If only you are fuzzy wuzzy and caring enough the rest will just fall into place, right? WRONG. That doctor freaked me out, telling me only "something may be wrong with your heart, try to take it easy until you see the cardiologist". I remember really disliking him for saying that as I wanted reassurance and instead got scared by him. The nurse was kindness itself, and got it so wrong. How can you diagnose without examination and investigations, knowing what to look for and how to interpret it? You CAN'T. Fair play to him for picking it all up even if he could've put things a little better.
Valid point Gina. But one relevant to debating cardiology amongst GPs and practice nurses - not Community Mental Health Teams.
I do not hesitate to refer a complaining patient to a medic for a physical to rule out biophysical cause. After that is rules out tho - inter personal skills is very much a part of the role. Learning about the person to understand their behaviours and their life situation is a hu8ge part of helping someone to recover from whatever mental health ailment they may be complaining of - since even most psychoses may respond well to medication but no psychiatrist ever takes the time to talk with the patient about what it's like to live with this psychoses - or how to cope with what the medication doesn't take away - or what happens when added stress causes a relapse - or how to deal with those symptoms that breakthrough in a better way.
I like the multi pronged approach of mental health - as long as each discipline sticks to it's own business.
Dr Crippen is far better than I at diagnosing physiological ailments.
But I wager I am far better than he at understanding how it effects the person on an individual level. It is what I spent all my career training to do.
I'm not suggesting he's not empathic - or that any doctor lacks compassion - they just have to manage their time so much that they stick to doing what they do - doctors should doctor and stop trying to be Durstitioners.
Great pics, doc. Thanks!
Good article.Especially the above.We end up with a justice system again, where many innocent people are locked up again on the basis of an anonymous witness who may have a grudge financial interest etc in cooperating with the Police or whoever wants the defendant put away.
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