Baconshit monitor (1)

Dr Peter Sargent is a Consultant Psychiatrist at Oxford, and well respected within the medical profession. Baconshit rates him at 25% and describes him as a "wanger". How much of this will the GMC tolerate? Do please let me know of any of the more off- the-wall comments that get onto Dr Neil Bacon's disreputable website. The more defamatory remarks he publishes, the more likely he is to be closed down. I have of course furled it, and will pass it on to Dr Sargent.
AND, an hour later:
JUST AS WELL THAT I DID FURL IT, AS THE PAGE HAS NOW DISAPPEARED. It's still cached on "furl it" here
So what is going on? Does this mean that comments go onto the website and are only checked at a later date for offensive or inaccurate content? At the moment, there are only reports on a small number of doctors. In the unlikely event of the website taking off, they will not be able to keep up.
++++++++++
A reader sends in this snapshot. Surely a spoof. No reputable doctor would allow a website to run this sort of stuff. Even Dr Neil Bacon. But it's stored on Doctors.net.uk which must be reputable as it was started by...Dr Neil Bacon. Oh! Dear
++++++++++
All submissions of Baconshit rubbish to nhsblogdoc--AT--gmail--DOT--com
All submissions of Baconshit rubbish to nhsblogdoc--AT--gmail--DOT--com
Labels: Baconshit, Dr Neil Bacon









68 Comments:
'He put his wanger in my ear. I'm not a psychiatric case. He did it twice. NO COMPUNCTION. AT ALL>'
was the original libellous entry.
As snapped here:
http://www.doctors.net.uk/DocStore/DSView/Document.aspx?docid=545956
Aren't there laws that protect the sites as long as they have efficient removal mechanisms? I'm pretty sure they exist and it seems that this site is operating within those boundaries.
Yes, the site is bad, however, the attack mounted against it by the medical community is even worse. It's just clutching at straws and exaggerating every minor flaw. Such attempts at discreditation (sp?) usually don't work and only worsen the image of the accuser.
This post has been removed by the author.
It is interesting that one can rate histopathologists on "whether they listened to you".
As far as I'm aware histopathologists don't spend much time talking to patients as part of their job descriptions.
"Yes, the site is bad, however, the attack mounted against it by the medical community is even worse. It's just clutching at straws and exaggerating every minor flaw. Such attempts at discreditation (sp?) usually don't work and only worsen the image of the accuser.
The very fact that anyone (let alone the medical community, who might have a vested interest, shock horror!) can freely post satirical, untrue, and even libellous comments on an (apparently) officially-sanctioned website without fear of reprisal isn't just a minor flaw - it's huge stark gaping chasm of a flaw.
This isn't Facebook, Jim - it's fucking around with people's professional reputations and their fucking livelihoods, for fuck's sake.
This site will not last - be it through fair means or foul
You may well help to get rid of Bacon but you will have a much harder job with www.ratemds.com. Or maybe you approve of this site because it's based in the US?
"You may well help to get rid of Bacon but you will have a much harder job with www.ratemds.com. Or maybe you approve of this site because it's based in the US?"I don't especially approve of either.
However, RateMDs is well established, yet has the merest handful of UK doctors listed, so it's by far a lesser evil in comparison to a UK-based (and publicised, no doubt) site with a pick-n-mix listing of hundreds (if not thousands) of UK doctors. It's utterly uncontrolled, and is almost asking for misuse.
The power wielded by the site owner is also concerning - there appear to be no absolute control in place.
Dear Doc Crippen
Pitty there's no kind of BOLAM test to see if Dr Bacon's site is any worse than any other internet based straw poll.
Frankly I'm amazed you & some gathered here take Bacon so seriously ..........it all smacks of little professional self confidence.
Put the boot on the other foot and view things from a patients perspective. We have to jump the BOLAM test before we can launch litigation against you lot.
I did, got the legal aid and I'm doing my bit to get better patient care in my area.
Oh yes when I went through proper channels i.e. the NHS complaints proceedure the bloody doctor never bothered to respond to practice complaints proceedure.
So get off your high horse before you fall off.
Dr Crippen,
I am not an expert on UK defamation laws I'm confident tha the tone of some of your posts (e.g. "Baconshit") sails close to the wind.
D.
Dr Crippen,
I am not an expert on UK defamation laws I'm confident tha the tone of some of your posts (e.g. "Baconshit") sails close to the wind.
D.
+++++
In what way?
The man has set up an insecure website upon which anyone who wants to slag of a doctor can do so. the doctor is NOT given the chance to reply or discuss before the comments are posted. This is not natural justice.
I have no problem with reasonable controls of the medical profession. Far from it.
Tell me this. What is Bacon's motivation for doing this? Altruism?
I think not
John
^ Very much so. The UK medical blogosphere has basically reduced itself to a mob with how they built the argument against IWantGreatCare.
The only valid argument I have read is the one done by T a few comments above, which deals with a dangerous concentration of power.
All the others could be solved by a better rating implementation.
Oh just to add... dr. crippen, why does motivation matter? We all live in capitalism.
How bizarre. You are upset by the offensive comments on his site, yet you appear to be even more upset by his prompt removal of such comments...
anonymous said...
How bizarre. You are upset by the offensive comments on his site, yet you appear to be even more upset by his prompt removal of such comments...
Monday, July 14, 2008 11:10:00 PM
+++++
you really don't get it, do you
So, Baconshits agenda is this:
Post offensive gratuitous, unsubstantiated remarks about doctors; he will publish them and then, later, remove the ones he does not like.
Great.
He is a shit.
Why does he not allow the doctor a chance to respond first?
John
John: Perhaps the medical community could improve the process by actually working with such sites.
An outright attack will not solve such issues, such as the ability of doctors to respond.
Oh yeah: the example in the post doesn't really confirm the agenda you're assuming.
The post was removed probably purely on a language basis.
I am amazed that this is legal. Surely publishing anonymous and unchecked comments about the professional behaviour of identifiable people could be libel or slander or something ? I can't see most people bothering to use the site, especially if they are actually ill and have serious things to worry about. Maybe if it takes off it'll get like book reviews, friends and relations will flood the site with positive remarks, would they be able to tell?
Sally (not a doctor but I really don't like this)
Dear NHS doctor,
your tab-menu links ('about', 'links' and 'legal') do not work in my IE7, can you verify this is not specific to my computer.
Iwantgreatcare.com is so badly designed its virtually unusuable. I just tested it for what may be core patient-user tasks - find a doctor in my town, find a practice in my town, and was unable to complete either task. Other websites are much more efficient at providing these services. Given its poor usablity this site will probably be seen by very few people (outside of outraged Dr.s) and is highly worthy of ignoring.
The medical community shouldn't waste its value time and emotional resources by repeatedly publicising this site.
I believe that Mr. Bacon is technically a human being and not a shit. I am a little concerned at the NHS Doctors diagnostic skills.
Yes, sorry, when I changed templates my IT guy did not update the menu things, apart from "home" and I don't know how to do it. Will get back on to it.
Yes, I slightly agree. Bacon might be best ignored.... but he is causing so much anger to doctors that it is hard to do that
JOhn
Dr Crippen said -
"Yes, I slightly agree. Bacon might be best ignored....
**** take your own medicine doctor, you are the one giving Bacon credibility ! *****
"but he is causing so much anger to doctors that it is hard to do that"
**** special pleadings Dr Crippen, who to FEK do you think you guy's are GOD ? ****
yes of course this site would be best ignored and of course such a site is virtually inevitable in the age of the web. Teachers get it, hotels get it, journalists get it and doctors have no god given right to be protected from the free for all of the web (and of course our host enjoys his freedoms pretty fully)
Which is why I have stayed out of this debate so far.
But what does make it worse is that it is being portrayed as a positive thing for doctors to use to improve their own performance. This is a stupid idea.
I personally have modified my performance based on proper feedback, garnered in a proper statistical way from a cross section of my patients. It was enlightening and helpful if a tad difficult. It could not be done based on offensive rantings from people who may or not be my patients.
The other reason the small minority of doctors who inhabit the blogosphere are so worked up about this is that it appears to have the approval of the GMC who promoted the site in its last newsletter. Most doctors are struggling to retain any confidence in the GMC as it sacrifices any independence or objectivity it had to try to appease its political masters and to curry enough favour to be allowed to continue in whatever form it is allowed to so do. The fact that our official registration body, the body who can take away our licence to practice is seen to be promoting this site does make it a bit worse than some idiot, powerless, loose cannon site.
Hi anonymous at 9.28
+++++
I think you are missing the point.
It is right and proper to have professional checks, balances and controls on doctors; of course it is. But this is an uncontrolled, insecure website which allows anonymous, unverified, defamatory remarks to be made without giving the doctor the chance to comment or defend himself.
Where is the justice in that? Do you consider that to be fair play?
JOhn
I am amused by the notion that without sites like this patients have no voice. Ask any GP practice about complaints procedures - there are about 5 different routes by which a patient may make a complaint against a GP or the practice staff. The PCT is then obliged to follow it up, and taken to its final conclusion (an investigation by a panel)this can be a very expensive and time consuming process. It is fair that patients should have the right to be heard in this way and that there are systems in place for them.
However, if a patient is obnoxious, abusive, threatening or just plain unreasonable to staff and doctors, how many complaint procedures are in place for the GP practice to refer to? That's easy - none.
Waiting for retirement
I don't think I've laughed so much in my life. And this is portrayed as a serious review right?
I presume those in favour of this site would be happy for a website which listed their name and place of work, and allowed people to post unfounded accusations and crude sexual slurs that may or may not eventually get removed, with no right of reply?
"It is right and proper to have professional checks, balances and controls on doctors; of course it is. But this is an uncontrolled, insecure website which allows anonymous, unverified, defamatory remarks to be made without giving the doctor the chance to comment or defend himself."
Or herself.
I know you shouldn't judge a book by its cover but sometimes you can JUST TELL..........look at the portrait of Bacon [see Dr Neil Bacon thread].
What does the carefully coiffed ginger fringe tell you, or the white chinnos that appear to be too tight - or the blue eyes..........pleading love me, or I will kill myself ?
Clearly this is a man who has thought long and hard about something [his appearance] yet still gets it completely wrong.
I know you shouldn't judge a book by its cover but sometimes you can JUST TELL..........look at the portrait of Bacon
**********************************
How about Dr Crippen's portrait at the top of this blog? The medical equivalent of the Colonel Blimp caricature, maybe?
Another disgruntled psychiatric patient, this time no wanger/ear accusations:
http://www.iwantgreatcare.org/reviews/Dr_John_Sharkey
Edit: supposedly added by a 'colleague', presumably with a grudge!
I agree with you about many things but not about this. I have looked at the website and it is clear that it is exactly what it says, the views of some patients.
Any one with any intelligence at all will realise that although some of the views will be accurate, some may be totally inaccurate. This doesn't seem any different to what already happens i.e. when I move to a new area I ask neighbours, etc who they think are good GP's locally. If people keep mentioning one GP as being particularly good I will give it more weight than 1 person saying this, but ultimately I use it as a guide and then make up my own mind.
Incidentally the idea that GP's can make complaints that actually lead to anything changing is in my experience laughable. I have come across some terrible GP's and 2 terrible consultants. I made complaints about 1 GP and 1 consultant that led to precisely nothing.
sorry last paragraph should obviously have said " the idea that" patients "can make complaints"
ruth
"Incidentally the idea that patients can make complaints that actually lead to anything changing is in my experience laughable."
perhaps in your limited experience, ruth. (2 complaints)
I work as a clinical assessor for Independent Review Panels, dealing with those cases where a practice's in house complaints procedure has failed to resolve a complaint and an independent lay person acting at the request of the primary care organisation (Health Board in NI, equivalent to PCT in England)feels that there is a case for the practice to answer.
The panel comprises 3 lay people, one of whom is a lawyer, there are a few (at least two, but more if the Chair feels it necessary) clinical assessors who advise the Panel.
I have done about 2 cases per year for the past 10 years. The GP has been found against in about half of the cases I have been involved in and exonerated in the other half. In those cases in which the GP is deemed to be at fault the panel specifies actions which the GP or practice must undertake in order to satisfy the PCO and hopefully (but not always) the complainant. Such actions have included firstly of course apology to the complainant followed by retraining for GP or staff, change in office or clinical protocols, upgrading of equipment, in each case change must be demonstrated.
If a practice does not co-operate and satisfy these requirements there would initially be local and financial penalties followed if necessary by referral to GMC. I have never come across a GP or practice who did not accept the findings of a Panel.
If either side feels that the Panel has failed to carry out its procedures properly a complaint to the Health Ombudsman can be made.
Sorry for such a long post but I feel it is necessary to correct your mistaken opinion. It is one of those common and widely held myths that the NHS complaints system doesn't work but I have seen it work. Admittedly the process I describe is slow but it is independent, it is fair and it does deliver change in the way practices treat patients.
Pretty much no defense against this in the USA. Your libel laws are significantly different, maybe there's a chance to discipline them.
These sites have been around for a while in the USA. Seems no one pays attention to them. The patients, I mean. Surveys show virtually no one is influenced by the sites. I suppose that could change.
Of interest, there was a Web site in the USA, I think it was called doctorsknowus.com
The site intended to list the names of people who filed medical liability lawsuits. The lawyers and politicians came down on the web site like a ton of bricks.
Oh, and there was a similar site to these doctor sites......but rating lawyers. They got a LOT of trouble from the legal community.
Seems there are some limits to freedom of speech.
Dr. Crippen, one thing that comes to mind as far as fighting back. Flood them with junk information. Glowing praise for doctors you've never met. "The voices in my head told me to see Dr. Crippen". Make up all sorts of stuff. Makes the site pretty much useless.
............arf
Anon: "I am amused by the notion that without sites like this patients have no voice. Ask any GP practice about complaints procedures - there are about 5 different routes by which a patient may make a complaint against a GP or the practice staff. The PCT is then obliged to follow it up, and taken to its final conclusion (an investigation by a panel)this can be a very expensive and time consuming process. It is fair that patients should have the right to be heard in this way and that there are systems in place for them."
Interesting comment - I complained to our PALS office at the PCT about an old GP which we had moved from, I was told that they couldn't do anything and that we would have to make a complaint via the Health Care Commission. We did write to the GP twice and received a bland response to the first letter. Very unsatisfactory. There doesn't appear to be any kind of formal process for logging complaints on a local level. The result? He carries on providing a sh*t service with a lack lustre 'bedside manner'.
Hi nigp I must say I knew nothing about how to make a complaint to an independent review panel. If I had known about this I would have done so. My complaints were all dealt (or not dealt with) in house by the relevant GP practice and hospital.
I had understood (obviously wrongly) that if you wanted to take it any further you had to go to court. And looking at anonymous's comments above I am not the only one who wrongly thinks this.
There may be information available on this that I could have tracked down. However, although I think the professionals involved were very unprofessional, it was not serious enough to cause long term injury or death. If it had been I am sure I would have looked more for this information.
However, looking at the website mentioned in the blog, the type of complaints are the types that people are unlikely to track down how to make complaints to an independent body about.
How ironic that Dr Crippen complains about abusive ad hominem criticism of clinicians at Iwantgreatcare, via his own abusive ad hominem attacks on Dr Bacon.
As a patient with more than 25 years experience of specialist consultations (go on, abuse me) I unreservedly welcome Iwantgreatcare. If Dr Crippen and his allies succeed in closing it down, it can and will be duplicated in multiple alternative jurisdictions.
1. I'm not sure even the nice reviews are of any use. I want great clinical care, anecdotal patient reports tell me anything about this.
2. Bacon is arguing that most of the spoof and malicious comments have been traced back to Doctors! If he has evidence of that, then isn't that reportable back to the GMC?
http://www.blacktriangle.org/blog/?p=1818
ruth
I do not know if a similar system operates in hospitals.
In general practice if you make a complaint to the practice the practice is now obliged to provide you with written information detailing the complaints procedure up to the Ombudsman level. This must explain that if you are not satisfied with the practice's response to your complaint you have the right to request an Independent Review, but you have to try the in-house system first and you are not automatically entitled to a review, the lay chair will ask you to justify your request and will ask the practice for their records and comments. The chair may refuse your request if he or she thinks the practice response was satisfactory.
I believe it works well but I accept it is cumbersome and not well understood. One of the problems for "both sides" is the multiplicity of ways a complaint may be taken,
the NHS system as described,
civil litigation - by suing a doctor for damages as a result of the doctor's actions
the GMC route by complaining about doctor's actions to the GMC, alleging professional misconduct
reporting a doctor to the police alleging a criminal offence.
And using one does not preclude using another, indeed the NHS scheme is sometimes used as a dry run for a more profitable civil suit.
This explains why doctors often feel threatened by quadruple jeopardy, while patients are confused about which option to use.
Surely the answer is to improve the complaints process across the board in the NHS. Making it easily accessible to all and sundry.
I will never be convinced that anonymous websites such as I want great care will be good for anything other than malicious slander.
Apparently M'learned Friends are now getting involved.
Dr Crippen You have done this exact thing to others. You have attempted to ruin their reputation based on no facts whatsoever, but because they weren't doctors I assume you think that they were fair game.
slightly tangential -- is another flaw that a patient's opinion of his doctor (especially when measured as 'does he listen', 'do i trust him' etc) may not in fact bear much relation to the quality of outcome for the patient? just a thought triggered by Ben Goldacre's article on a student's perception of his teacher, where the conclusion seems to be that an impression of having learnt something is very different form actually being well taught. See http://www.badscience.net/2008/07/testing-the-plausibility-effect/
As far as I can see. Even if the comment is later removed, the quote still appears on the front page under "not so great care" and links to the doctors Profile.
anonymous said...
Dr Crippen You have done this exact thing to others. You have attempted to ruin their reputation based on no facts whatsoever, but because they weren't doctors I assume you think that they were fair game.
Wednesday, July 16, 2008 12:28:00 AM
++++++
No I have not. Not every. I have made strong and vitriolic criticism of people already in the public arena (e.g. Patiricia Hewitt, Darzi, Bacon and so on) but I have never mounted unsubstantiated attacks on individuals who are not in the public arena.
AND unlike baconshit's site, anyone who disagrees with what I say is free to comment in anyway they see fit. In other words, there is a right of reply
John
I was the second person who left a comment for Dr Sargent on the "I want great care" website. I didn't leave a rude comment just constructive criticism for him but that got taken off the website too. I was a patient of Dr Sargent's and its all very well doctors sticking up for each other but they want to experience what their personal skills and manner are like to the patients. Some are just not very good even though they might have brilliant qualifications on paper ! I don't expect this to end up on the blog doctor website either.
By the way- the NHS complaints system is diabolical especially if you are a former psychiatric patient. Your complaint all gets put down to your "illness" which is totally frustrating as you can have psychiatric problems but still be a intelligent and articulate human being.
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