Monday, July 14, 2008

Skins



I grow weary of the knocking copy directed against GPs that appears on a daily basis in the newspapers and from the BBC. Today, it is a report from the dermatologists. I can’t be bothered to go through it in detail – I do not wield the knife myself – but do take a look at the response from the Jobbing Doctor who does do surgery.
The BBC reports:

A separate study of skin cancer biopsies sent by GPs to a London teaching hospital showed that 14% of the tumours involved were "high risk", and should have been referred straight to a hospital specialist.


In Norfolk, analysis of the records of 80 patients with melanoma found that 13% of them had been incompletely excised or biopsied in primary care
I do not doubt it is true. To digress for a second, I note with distaste that the currently fashionable but distinctly odd linguistic affection of describing that which should be plural as singular is spreading.

Think about the above figures a little. You could have said:
86% of tumours removed by GPs were not high risk
87% of melanomas were completely excised by GPs
That sounds good, but the media would never put it like that. Instead, the Times' headline is "GPs skin cancer operations could prove fatal". Let me tell you something else. Dermatologists do not have a much better clinical diagnostic success rate. They biopsy everything. And if the answer comes back as  “melanoma”, it is not the dermatologist who does the wide excision, it is the plastic surgeon.

Doctors tend to categorise skin lesions as 
  1. obviously cancer
  2. probably cancer
  3. may be cancer
  4. probably not cancer
  5. not cancer. 
It is amazing how often a lesion which is clinically not cancerous turns out to be so when the pathologist has taken a look. Medicine is about judgement. If Dr David Shuttleworth wants all skin lesions to be referred to dermatologists under the “two week rule” that is fine by me. The system will break down immediately and no one will get anything biopsied for months.

There is something else this article does not tell you; something else that the arrogant Dr Shuttleworth does not tell you either; something that the PCTs are quietly implementing; something that the government is trying to hush up
Hospitals are financed by a fixed payment (tariff) for each patient that is seen or each operation that is performed. If your GP refers you to hospital, his or her Primary Care Trust (PCT), which is the body which contracts on behalf of the GPs, will be billed by the hospital when you are seen.

How these changes may affect you

Most Primary Care Trusts (PCTs) are trying to save money and reduce hospital bills by asking GPs to refer fewer patients to specialists working in hospitals. Many PCTs are setting up ‘intermediate services’ that are not covered by the Choose & Book system outlined above and which they perceive to be cheaper. Patients referred to these services will not be offered choice, nor are they likely to be seen by a fully trained and accredited dermatologist on the GMC (General Medical Council) specialist register. You may be seen by a GP with a special interest in dermatology and perhaps a dermatology diploma, a doctor trained elsewhere in Europe or perhaps a specialist nurse. Some, but not all, of the individuals working in intermediate services may also work closely with a consultant dermatologist in the local hospital department. (British Association of Dermatologists)
I don't see why we need the snotty remark about European medical training but leaving that aside it is clear that even when you are referred to a Consultant you may well end up being seen by a non-medically qualified nurse-quacktitioner or the nearly as ludicrous GPwSI. What’s the difference between a doctor and a nurse? Five years at medical school. What's the difference between a GP and a GPwSI? Arrogance.

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21 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"86% of tumours removed by GPs were not high risk
87% of melanomas were completely excised by GPs"


People doing their jobs properly is rightly not news.

Most Primary Care Trusts (PCTs) are trying to save money and reduce hospital bills

Oh no! Trying to use public resources efficiently? That won't do.

What's the difference between a GP and a GPwSI? Arrogance.

Good thing Dr C shows not a trace of that.

Monday, July 14, 2008 5:43:00 PM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

"86% of tumours removed by GPs were not high risk
87% of melanomas were completely excised by GPs"

People doing their jobs properly is rightly not news

====

Wake up anonymous; the numbers are the same as the ones presented in the article.

Not news, then, eh?



JOhn

Monday, July 14, 2008 6:49:00 PM  
Anonymous Posey said...

I have to say that I agree with Dr C on this (as with most things). I think the stats after GP treatment are pretty damned good.

Best I can give most of my clients is 50:50, and that's on a good day.

Could someone please lay off the GPs? I find it incredible that the government STILL hasn't learned that doctors do their job best when left alone by politicians.

Monday, July 14, 2008 7:59:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dr. C
I prefer

"plural as singular is spreading"

rather than

"pleural as singular is spreading."

paul

Monday, July 14, 2008 8:17:00 PM  
Anonymous Insider said...

The difference between a GP and GPwSI is "arrogance"?

Not to mention a minimum two years specialist training in Dermatology (for the example given).

Of course, what you fail to mention Dr C is why the guidance on Skin Cancers was introduced in the first place. Perhaps you can enlighten us?

Perhaps you can also explain your assertion that a dermatologist will not remove the malignant melanoma, when MOHs is usually done by... wait for it... a dermatologist

Monday, July 14, 2008 9:40:00 PM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

I have to say that I agree with Dr C on this (as with most things). I think the stats after GP treatment are pretty damned good. Best I can give most of my clients is 50:50, and that's on a good day.Could someone please lay off the GPs? I find it incredible that the government STILL hasn't learned that doctors do their job best when left alone by politicians.

+++++

Posey,

I don't know who or what you are, but your short comment really cheered me up... and I need cheering up!



John

Monday, July 14, 2008 10:34:00 PM  
Blogger Dr John Crippen said...

Dr. C
I prefer

"plural as singular is spreading"

rather than

"pleural as singular is spreading."

paul

+++++

Paul,

Thank you. I keep doing this. Lungs and singular. Lungs and lingular.

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh. Hoisted on my own petard.

I have corrected it

Ta

J

Monday, July 14, 2008 10:38:00 PM  
Blogger Rohin said...

Surely these figures are meaningless without comparing them to whatever the papers consider the 'gold standard'. If plastic surgeons or dermatologists enjoy the same success rate, then surely the BBC can...how does one say...fuck off?

Monday, July 14, 2008 11:04:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rohin

You are so right, but now the BBC has got really into the swing of the new national sport of GP bashing they would be a bit loathe to let a few minor things like facts get in the way of a good story. After all they have learned from the best - Nulabour.

Waiting for retirement

Tuesday, July 15, 2008 11:15:00 AM  
Anonymous Ruth said...

Just had a personal experience of a referral to a Consultant by the GP being changed by the "assessment team". I have a very rare condition - multiple osteo chondromatosis that leads to extra bones growing. Increasing pain in my foot and at least one lump made me think bones were growing in my foot.

My GP said that this may be a ganglion in which case I would see a podiatrist but more likely to be a growing bone in which case I need to be seen by a foot surgeon. I had x rays which confirmed three new bones growing in my foot. My GP made a referral to a Consultant.

I have just received a letter back saying that my referral has been seen by the assessment team who have decided that I need to be seen by a podiatrist.

I know the podiatrist will be unable to do anything. The bones have grown too quicly and I am in too much pain when standing for cushion inserts, etc in my shoes to make much difference.

What will happen instead is that I will be seen by a podiatrist who will say they can do nothing for me and then I will finally be allowed to see a foot surgeon. It may be that it is not wise to operate, but a podiatrist certainly won't be able to give me advice on this!

Tuesday, July 15, 2008 6:11:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There was an article on "doctor shortages" in various parts of the country. One article in LA Times a while back. A lady had a skin growth on her scalp. Her beautician found it. She endured months of anxious waiting. Of course, what she did was wait months to see a dermatologist.

Had the lady come to me (don't live in LA mind you)......she would have had the lesion biopsied the same day, tissue diagnosis in a few days.

A similar story in the article, about a man waiting weeks to see a cardiologist because of chest pains. So with chest pains, not bad enough to motivate him to the emergency department, it's either see a cardiologist or do nothing.

Again, he'd have been in my office the same day. EKG in office. Chemistries and lipid panel in-office (assuming the patient is fasting), I'd accomplish a large amount of the risk stratification on the spot.

Assuming OK, anxiety significantly reduced while awaiting referral for any treadmill or cath as indicated, or emergent referral if ominous findings in the office.

Instead, it's go to the dermatologist for the seborrheic keratoses or axillary skin tags. Training with the dermatologists, I'd see that. Even they would shrug their shoulders and say there's no reason on Earth to send such things to cardiologists.

But from there, now they notice simple hypertension. Go to the cardiologist. Need a routine PAP? See the GYN.

Then they wonder why the cost of healthcare is so high.

And the biggest joke. The cardiologist is not seeing the simple hypertension, and the GYN is not doing routine PAP's.

All that stuff is done by Physician Assistants or Nurse Practitioners hired by the consultants.


...........arf

Tuesday, July 15, 2008 6:50:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dr Crippen, you may wish to comment on this:

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-news/regional-news/2008/07/16/mps-demand-inquiry-on-private-health-deal-64375-21348584/

Outsourcing of dermatology services to a private company (Assura Medical)in which local GPs have a financial stake!

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 11:11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Imagine Crippen's response to a story reporting that Nurse Practitioners got it right 'only' 87% of the time...but that would be the result of their lack of education and training of course

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 3:56:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

crippen you bounder!
i will not be referred to as arrogant.
neither would i advertise myself as a GPwSI in skin. however i was a dermatology registrar, have a diploma (wt merit) and have 10 years experience as a clinical assistant to an exceptional teacher. i know the difference between a zit and a spot and i can bullshit fluently in descriptive latin. agreed some gpwsi are underexperienced but the concept is sound. hospitals are expensive things with nasty germs and lots of junior doctors. i dont like Darzi but i agree we gps can probably manage a lot of outpatient bread and butter in surgery (not polyclinic). remember the old days when hypertension meant a cardiology clinic visit.
incidentally i was offered a gp skin clinc job appointment for £37 per hout. that allegedly was the going rate for consultant with on call included (on call derm is a trip to the pub).
call me a decent dr or i will challenge you to a duel. seconds not allowed, you may choose the weapons. dont criticise my gramma i have been drinking lindauer brut cuvee, which i commend.

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 8:26:00 PM  
Anonymous Dr John Crippen said...

anonymous said...
crippen you bounder!
i will not be referred to as arrogant.
neither would i advertise myself as a GPwSI in skin. however i was a dermatology registrar, have a diploma (wt merit) and have 10 years experience as a clinical assistant to an exceptional teacher. i know the difference between a zit and a spot and i can bullshit fluently in descriptive latin. agreed some gpwsi are underexperienced but the concept is sound. hospitals are expensive things with nasty germs and lots of junior doctors. i dont like Darzi but i agree we gps can probably manage a lot of outpatient bread and butter in surgery (not polyclinic). remember the old days when hypertension meant a cardiology clinic visit.
incidentally i was offered a gp skin clinc job appointment for £37 per hout. that allegedly was the going rate for consultant with on call included (on call derm is a trip to the pub).
call me a decent dr or i will challenge you to a duel. seconds not allowed, you may choose the weapons. dont criticise my gramma i have been drinking lindauer brut cuvee, which i commend.

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 8:26:00 PM

+++++

Wasn't being too serious, but I am uneasy about GPwSIs

Lots of GPs, including me, have additional expertise and interest in particular areas, and that is as it should be. In group practices that means that patients with particular problems see particular doctors. And that is how it should be. GPs should NOT be clearing off to hospitals to pretend to be something they are not.



John

Wednesday, July 16, 2008 8:45:00 PM  
Anonymous Sarah said...

Tumours really creep me out. Thank god I don't have any, but I agree in that you should get them checked immediately rather than wait till it's too late.

Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:44:00 AM  
Anonymous Medical Center said...

I wonder how you feel about the 13% ? Life is for the lucky ones

Tuesday, July 29, 2008 3:01:00 PM  
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Saturday, September 27, 2008 9:47:00 AM  
Blogger gillberk said...

Skins is a BAFTA-winning British comedic teen drama from Company Pictures which premièred on E4 on January 25, 2007. Skins revolves around the lives of a group of 16–19 year-old friends who live in Bristol and attend the fictional Roundview Sixth Form College. Each episode has a self-contained theme and focuses on a different character, although several story arcs span different episodes.
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