Urine enemas suggested as a treatment for acne
A diet devoid of salt, topped up with six pints of water a day, is not compatible with life.
A woman who suffered brain damage after she was allegedly put on a detox diet by a nutritional therapist yesterday (July 3) won £810,000 in compensation. Dawn Page, 52, from Coxwell Street, Faringdon, told London's High Court she had suffered uncontrolled vomiting and a fit after consulting Barbara Nash, of Old London Road, Holton, near Wheatley, about losing weight. Mrs Page's legal team alleged Mrs Nash advised her to increase her water intake by six pints a day - and to avoid salt. They also said that when informed of Mrs Page's symptoms, Mrs Nash said "what was happening was not unusual" and "was part of the detoxification process".Despite the court's finding, and the size of the damages, Barbara Nash denies liability. If you look at her website she is still practising as a “nutritionist”, whatever that is, and purports to have some qualifications, in particular a D.N.N. Dr Crippen has never heard of the D.N.N. Apparently it stands for the Diploma in Natural Nutrition. Barbara Nash does not tell us on her web site where she acquired the qualification. A little searching soon takes us to the College of Natural Nutrition. Who knows if Barbara is an alumnus but the College certainly offers a broad training in "nutritionism" (whatever that is). There is a variety of courses for both "undergraduate" and "post-graduate" nutritionists. The Advanced Practitioners course is particularly impressive:
Mrs Page, through her husband Geoffrey, sued Mrs Nash and today agreed the six figure settlement with Mrs Nash's insurers. Dennis Matthews, speaking for Mrs Nash, said she was a "privately trained nutritionist", and emphasised she continued to deny she was in any way to blame for what happened. (Oxford Mail)
The Advanced Year also features energy work showing how perfectly Natural Nutrition works with all of the healing energy therapies. Astrology is brought in as an understanding of universal energies influencing us as individuals and collectively. The college also uses an energy camera to help in our awareness of how we function energetically. (College of Advanced Nutrition)Great stuff. I thought I would look first at the college forum, to see what sort of advice the College was offering. And there I met the very lovely Hayley Mcalinden. Hayley already has an intermediate certificate in hygiene, is an experienced model and would like to try catwalk, fashion and lingerie. The multi-talented Hayley is currently studying for a diploma in nutrition.
Hi! Hayley. Hayley, helped by Paul, is already giving advice on the College of Advanced Nutrition forum. Alex has written in to ask how best to treat his acne.
Alex asks:Whilst idly rummaging around in his drawer for some tetracycline, Dr Crippen is trying to remember when he last saw a 7 year old with "pernicious" acne. But tetracycline is old hat at the College of Natural Nutrition. The dialogue continues:
I've been treating myself using natural nutrition for a year and a half now. As my more serious symptoms have faded I am left with very pernicious acne (which I've had since I was seven). I'm pretty up-together with the diet and techniques and was wondering if anyone has any perspectives on acne. As far as I can see I need to work on the endocrine system via oils, and the colon via hydration. The Weston Price website also recommends eating plenty of saurkraut to aid bowel flora. If anyone has any other tips as to healing or causes it would be much appreciated
Hayley: Hi Alex: Urine enemas work a treat, do one a day for a week. Good luckNow you are beginning to think that Dr Crippen is taking the piss, aren’t you? But he isn’t. It is all here. And if it disappears, I have furled it. How can the professors and academic staff of the College of Natural Nutrition allow advice like this to remain on their web site? Are they psychiatrically unwell? It seems that some of them were. All fully recovered now, I trust. Let’s take a look at them.
Alex: Cool! Fresh or old?
Hayley: Old or fresh whatever you’ve got.
Paul: Perhaps on a general note r.e. acne I would focus on healing your gut. I'm reading the Healing Psoriasis book that Kate recommended recently (I think it was Kate). This includes things like acne which according to the philosophy that we're learning here I think is basically an indication that our normal elimination pathways are either over taxed (a.k.a. cells releasing to much at one time), damaged, blocked so the toxins back up into blood and lymph and then use the skin and lungs to get out - result acne, etc... You could also try drinking your fresh first morning urine, which is good for lots of things.
Barbara is absolutely right that the medical profession does not have an answer to MS. Dr Crippen is delighted to hear she cured herself. Has she written up how she did it or is it a secret? Is she offering to "cure" other MS patients? That is the obvious inference. Kinesiology is wibble. Cannot comment on the College of Polarity as I have never heard of it. I wonder if it involves magnets?
Barbara's first contact with the medical profession was as a student nurse at St Mary's Hospital, Paddington, at the age of 18. During this time she developed Anorexia Nervosa which continued to be a problem for many years. After nursing, Barbara worked at University College Hospital, London, with thyroid cancer patients. The next ten years were spent having a family of 4 children. It was after the birth of the 4th child that Barbara developed M.E./M.S. symptoms and became almost dysfunctional. The medical profession had no answers for these problems and so she started to take full responsibility for curing herself. In order to do this she read a great deal of conventional literature from which she was able to extrapolate and create her own philosophy around healing. After moving to Devon, Barbara became involved with the foundation of the Natural Health Network Clinic. She also began practising as a dietary therapist in a local G.P.'s practice. From these involvements she developed her philosophy even further and began to see the larger picture, displaying a series of connections rather than isolated incidents.
The real test for Barbara's philosophy was to heal herself. She began to put all her ideas into practice and embarked on the road to recovery. This was a very successful process culminating in a years pre-conceptual work before having her fifth child at 43. During this pregnancy Barbara co-founded "The College of Dietary Therapy" where she started to share her concepts with students. This college ran from 1982 to 1989 and trained many of todays Dietary Therapists.
From that point on she has been in great demand to share her concepts with organisations around the country, including The National Child Birth Trust, Well Women Clinics, The Informed Parent, M.E. Groups and Colleges of Kinesiology, Polarity, Osteopathy and Acupuncture. She has also had several articles published in the national press on her philosophy.
As well as teaching, Barbara continues to practice in the South West. She tends to attract patients who have tried various therapies without success and are desperate to get better. She puts emphasis on educating her patients to see why they have arrived at their current state and then gives them the means to take control of their own healing process. Running a college, a busy practice, and a family of five children, she has proved that her philosophy really does work.
Kate's journey to improve her own health began while taking a degree in politics and philosophy. Chronic ill health and a feeling of total disconnection led her to a yoga class and from there to learn about healing. As well as practising Natural Nutrition in Devon, Kate practises Yoga and The Metamorphic Technique.
I love the last paragraph. Can anyone translate it? Does this mean that eating a slice of wholemeal bread (surely natural nutrition) represents an ongoing dialogue with one's body?
Kirsten was instinctively drawn to nutrition for support at one of the most decisive turning points in her life, when diagnosed with cancer in her late twenties. Although she hadn’t then come across the philosophy of Natural Nutrition, the experience started a journey that helped Kirsten reassess her life on many levels and then to her training at the college.
The philosophy appealed to Kirsten’s methodical, scientific side, whilst remaining an art that encourages creativity and sensitivity. "Natural Nutrition, for me, represents an ongoing dialogue with my body and an ever deepening relationship with myself. The more space I clear within, the more I allow myself to be nourished and the more in touch I become with who I actually am. It's a very special way of supporting and enabling healing and growth”.
...following the breakdown of her marriage, Sally became anorexic and suffered from total allergy syndrome. She became familiar with the unsatisfactory response of the medical establishment, and explored the alternative scene for over 10 years. It was a when a friend introduced her to Barbara Wren, and she took the Natural Nutrition route, that she regained her health. Within 6 months she felt well enough to take the attendance course, and qualified with distinction as a therapist in 1985.
Richard is a psychological astrologer. Through his medium he seeks to guide people to reconnect with a deeper sense of personal wholeness and understanding, from this will emerge a clearer recognition and validation of the purpose of their unique journey in this lifetime. In his 23 years as a practising astrologer he has studied extensively with Liz Greene and The Centre for Psychological Astrology and at The Faculty of Astrological Studies. He has also trained and practices as a Humanistic Psychotherapist, Re-Birther and Past Life Regression. Richard finds his person-centred approach is mirrored by the college's emphasis on informing and empowering the individual to realise their own potential
Having struggled to find an understanding for herself on a physical level around bulimia, weight and the health issues that accompany it, she finally arrived at The College of Natural Nutrition. It was here that she found a way of living and being that embraced the whole person was being taught. The course teaches how to listen, understand and work with your own body and from doing this she reached a high level of awareness concerning the body's cycles and rhythms. It has now become her passion along with her many years of personal development and trainings in N.L.P. and Voice Dialogue (the psychology of the selves) and the importance of lifestyle which she brings to her practice and teaching.
Having always been interested in health and inspired by some further time spent living in the U.S.A., she wanted to learn about healing and yet still be able to incorporate her own extensive knowledge of food. She enrolled with The College of Natural Nutrition and found the topic to be extraordinarily inspiring: revealing the connection between our bodies, the stars, the seasons and the earth. Wanting to somehow manifest this, to help people re-discover how to feel better by reconnecting to the earth, eating well, enjoying local, seasonal, healthy food; she opened an organic restaurant and juice bar in 2000. She is passionate about seasonal eating, dogs, life between the wars and making preserves for afternoon tea.
Do study the detailed c.v.’s of all the faculty here. Ask yourself which member of staff you would choose as your personal tutor. The only University qualification that Dr Crippen recognises here is the degree in nutritional biochemisty that is indeed taught at Nottingham Univeristy. I wonder if Nick Bennett, who has some conventional scientific training, would feel able to justify the use of urine enemas to treat acne? Nick Bennett also works for Boots the Chemist helping to flog CoQ10, a currently fashionable example of expensive wibble. Take a look at the excellent DC's improbable science for more information.
Nick graduated from Nottingham University with a BSc (Hons) in Nutritional Biochemistry. While still studying for his degree he became involved with a Home Office Project on the links between Nutrition and Criminal Behaviour, the findings of which were published in the journal "Nutrition and Health". This field still remains an important part of Nick's research.
For seven years Nick worked in the technical departments of two leading U.K. supplement companies finishing in the position of "Technical Director" before leaving in 2002 to set up a consultancy with his wife Sue. Nick now works from home where he can spend more time with his two children advising supplement companies on technical, regulatory and product research matters.
The concept of urine enemas makes me giggle. It is of course wibble. Pure, unadulterated wibble. As is most of the stuff coming out of the Centre for Natural Nutrition. Do you really want to study with a psychological astrologer so that you can reconnect with the earth, be passionate about jam making, learn about re-birthing and have an on-going dialogue with your body? Perhaps you do!
We can all laugh but, underneath the laughter, there is a serious problem. I think of the teenage children I see, their lives made miserable by severe acne. The medical profession does not have a complete answer to acne but there is a lot we can do. Trouble is, these days, teenagers trawl the internet looking for "alternative" cures for acne. I am horrified to think that they might arrive at the College of Natural Nutrition site. Imagine walking unexpectedly into your teenage daughter's bedroom to find her self-administering a stale urine enema. Not funny.
And then think of poor, brain damaged Dawn Page. Not funny at all.
We can all laugh but, underneath the laughter, there is a serious problem. I think of the teenage children I see, their lives made miserable by severe acne. The medical profession does not have a complete answer to acne but there is a lot we can do. Trouble is, these days, teenagers trawl the internet looking for "alternative" cures for acne. I am horrified to think that they might arrive at the College of Natural Nutrition site. Imagine walking unexpectedly into your teenage daughter's bedroom to find her self-administering a stale urine enema. Not funny.
And then think of poor, brain damaged Dawn Page. Not funny at all.
Labels: Barbara Nash DNN, Centre for Natural Nutrition, urine enemas, wibble
58 Comments:
I think it's fascinating how many "nutritionists" appear have an eating disorder (unusually, openly acknowledged by some of these people). I have long believed that the kind of person who becomes preoccupied with this stuff has a bit of an iffy relationship with food and that many "natural", "exclusion", "wheat-free" or "anti-allergy" diets are just a socially acceptable way to severely restrict food intake. What worries me is that they then encourage others with disordered relationships with food to join in...
From the forum:
"Can anyone recommend an easy to follow and not frightening a and p book?! I am studying correspondence a and p with a homoepath in bombay and she cannot recommend a book. I have several of my own, all which are so indepth and complicated I cannot face opening them!! Anything written from a holistic angle would also be less tricky for me."
http://www.natnut.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=vthread&forum=1&topic=581
Translation - some quack in India who I'm paying a lot of money to to teach me doesn't actually know anything about A&P, and I'm not smart enough to figure out the books I have.
I just can't figure out the holistic a&p - the electron transport chain depends on the alignment of the stars and the patient's emotional wellbeing maybe?
no, not funny, often harmless but sometimes dangerous.
At least the quack had insurance unlike the independent midwives (for whom of course negligence or underperformance are not an issue)
What can be done?
Expose them on blogs such as this and that of the excellent Ben Goldacre. Denounce them one on one during consultations with patients who ask about them.
Police the web? The HON accreditation never seemed to take off and I think the web cannot be tamed.
Educate people about basic science and rationality? A rather tall order for our educational system which struggles with basic literacy and numeracy
But at least we should be able to deny them respctable alliances. One of these charlatans claims to have worked in a GP surgery. If true surely these GPs are guilty of association and culpable before the GMC (but maybe the GMC are so pc nowadays that this would no longer be frowned upon).
NI GP, there is a thought-provoking piece on Science Based Medicine in which Dr Dave Gorski discusses why denunciations might not always be the best way of preserving a therapeutic alliance. Death by 'alternative' medicine: who's to blame?
Mary Parsons
John,
You devote a lot of time to exposing frauds who operate outside the NHS - and this is a laudable activity.
I guess one of the reasons for the proliferation of these individuals who keep you so busy is disillusionment with mainstream medical care. Clearly there's a gulf between highly regulated, professionally accredited established medical bodies who tend to employ drug-orientated, one-size-fits-all techniques and the largely unregulated, sometimes fraudulent 'alternative' practitioners who are more inclined to espouse dietary cures and/or techniques tailored to the individual.
I have experienced the power of both, having been successfully treated for conditions by my doctor and having also rectified a number of minor ailments (anecdotal evidence, clearly) by altering my diet; this was not, I should add, under the direction of any alternative therapist - I just figured it out for myself. My perception is that mainstream medical practice does, by and large, under-rate the role of diet in healing and sits a little behind the curve in this regard. Hardly surprising, though, since the same machinery that enables us to feel as if the medical establishment is a safe pair hands, takes time to approve new ideas.
I am interested to know where you stand on this - do you believe that the medical establishment does attach enough importance to the role of diet in conditions? Also, do you worry that the robust approach you and others take to discrediting people like Barbara Nash (whilst entirely justified, by the way) might have the unintended consequence of alienating the public from all alternative viewpoints and possibly stifling innovative thought in these areas? Finally, do you think that the machinery I refer to, if it is slow enough in a particular area, should be held to account for the impact on patients?
I'm intrigued as to whether a sufficiently well-endowed man could self-administer a urine enema without any external equipment.
I have to agree with ann (pharmacist) above: it does seem mainly to be about people who don't want a solution. And god knows why anyone would go through the chore of avoiding a particular food when they don't have to. Particularly when, like me, it's wheat that causes their symptoms (Crohn's flareups, in my case. And treated through an NHS GI clinic, with reference to papers in refereed journals, and correspondence with other clinics where research into dietary treatment of Crohn's is going on, etc, etc,)
Mary
Thanks for that, we had a similar case in Ireland a few years ago, I have been googling for a link but cannot find it.
But I do not believe that the irrationality of some practitioners and patients requires us to moderate condemnation of what is quackery. On a strategic point we must be wary of the danger of allowing them to become martyrs, "hounded by Western medicine which is afraid of them", so we should not personalise it but stick to the science. Let them put forward a hypothesis, test it in a reliable, reproducible way and publish their findings.
You devote a lot of time to exposing frauds who operate outside the NHS - and this is a laudable activity. I guess one of the reasons for the proliferation of these individuals who keep you so busy is disillusionment with mainstream medical care.
I agree. A lot of people turn to alternatives because they don’t get what they want from science based mainstream care. And I don’t suggest for a moment that doctors have a monopoly of wisdom. They don’t. But they do work on the basis of science. Yes, if you look back, they have made some terrible mistakes (radiotherapy for ank spond!!!! for example) but they are still science based.
Clearly there's a gulf between highly regulated, professionally accredited established medical bodies who tend to employ drug-orientated, one-size-fits-all techniques and the largely unregulated, sometimes fraudulent 'alternative' practitioners who are more inclined to espouse dietary cures and/or techniques tailored to the individual.
Agreed. And I agree with the inference I have taken that conventional doctors can be a little hidebound
I have experienced the power of both, having been successfully treated for conditions by my doctor and having also rectified a number of minor ailments (anecdotal evidence, clearly) by altering my diet; this was not, I should add, under the direction of any alternative therapist - I just figured it out for myself.
No problem with that. There are lots of things that may be achieved by a good diet or, on occasions a controlled exclusion diet; lower cholesterol; less heart disease; control of celiac disease and so on
My perception is that mainstream medical practice does, by and large, under-rate the role of diet in healing and sits a little behind the curve in this regard. Hardly surprising, though, since the same machinery that enables us to feel as if the medical establishment is a safe pair hands, takes time to approve new ideas. I am interested to know where you stand on this - do you believe that the medical establishment does attach enough importance to the role of diet in conditions?
I think that is fair. We doctors do tend to be dubious about claims made about the healing powers of certain diets. To a large extent this is because the looney tune nutritionists make extravagant and unsustainable claims about diet and then FLATLY REFUSE TO DO PROPER TRIALS. We are also appalled that nutritionists use there pseudo science to sell overpriced, unnecessary vitamins and minerals which at best do nothing and at worst may be harmless.
A good balanced diet is important for all. Dietetic advice for certain medical conditions (celiac disease, renal failure, properly proven food allergy) is essential.
Also, do you worry that the robust approach you and others take to discrediting people like Barbara Nash (whilst entirely justified, by the way) might have the unintended consequence of alienating the public from all alternative viewpoints and possibly stifling innovative thought in these areas? Finally, do you think that the machinery I refer to, if it is slow enough in a particular area, should be held to account for the impact on patients?
I don’t worry about that at all. I don’t really thing that “alternative medicine” exists. It’s an oxymoron. Medicine is medicine. If a nutritionist says that buying the expensive special carrots he grows will protect against breast cancer, lets do a trial on that. But they never will
John
I don’t worry about that at all. I don’t really think that “alternative medicine” exists. It’s an oxymoron. Medicine is medicine. If a nutritionist says that buying the expensive special carrots he grows will protect against breast cancer, lets do a trial on that. But they never will.
----------------------------
Agreed - there is clearly a problem with unsubstantiated claims and the erosion of impartiality by commercial motivation. But there are a lot of well-intentioned people out there discussing things like the role of diet in disease in a fairly impartial and fair-minded way and I worry that they are being tarred with the same brush as the charlatans, albeit inadvertently.
alex j
Sadly, when you look closely at people who at first sight appear to
"discuss... things like the role of diet in disease in a fairly impartial and fair-minded way"
- you usually find that they are neither impartial or fair-minded, but operate to a mantra of "nutrition and supplements good, conventional bad". Patrick Holford, rarely off breakfast TV's sofas, is the classic example.
When I started writing and blogging about alternative therapies and bad science a couple of years ago, I started from a far more sympathetic position than my old statistics guru Prof David Colquhoun. But after that time looking into, and debating with, the Alt-Nutrition folk, I have come more and more to the conclusion that David Colquhoun and Prof Edzard Ernst are right. Virtually none of those advocating "nutritional therapies" are really interested in evidence-based answers, or proper trials. All they want is to be allowed to flog their particular brand of nutri-waffle to the punters - preferably with the sanction of the healthcare system but if not then without it.
Reminds me of the letter I once read about an escaped pet hamster urinating on someone's face in the night, and it fixed their acne.
Dr C,
I posted with regard to CoQ10 when you wrote about it back in April, but you were in one of your more frivolous moods, I think, and didn’t really engage in the questions I tried to ask (no doubt clumsily, as I have no medical training).
There’s loads of anecdotal ‘evidence’ that people with Type I diabetes who have been taking statins for a number of years find muscle ache lessens or disappears when taking CoQ10.
I realise that’s just hearsay, but it’s a very common topic of conversation on diabetes forums, support groups etc. where, by and large, participants have little vested or commercial interest in its promotion.
What I would like to know is, is there any science behind this at all? Any tests done? Anything?
I am most definitely NOT a believer in alternative medicine (children’s godparents include a consultant anaesthetist, a consultant in ocular plastics and a GP), in this specific instance CoQ10 does seem to have a benefit…
Hi Rob
Sorry if I missed your last comment. There are so many and I just don't have time to reply to them all.
There is no hard evidence that CoQ10 helps statin muscle pains, and it has been looked into:
http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/band161/b161-5.html
My problem with it, as with most of this over-promoted junk, is that the nutritionists always make extravagant and unsupported claims about its properties. They (possible deliberately) mislead a credulous public into believing that it makes people feel more "energetic" on the basis that at a biochemical level it does have energy producing ability - but only at a biochemical level.
John
Notice how most of these nuts are women?
I wonder what she means by "M.E./M.S. symptoms" - does she think they are the same illness?
A fascinating post as was the "death by alternative medicine" one. I applaud your attempts to expose these charlatans, I just wish more of them could be prosecuted for fraud.
and I bet they have very boring christmas parties at the college of natural nutrition
Dr C
Thanks for that link. So no evidence at all, then, it seems.
I wonder why it’s suddenly become so hip. Might investigate further with the ‘diabetes community’ or even (shudders at the thought) try it myself.
I’ll let you know if I turn up anything interesting.
Keep up the good work.
I think it's "hip" because bloody Boots the Chemist have started to flog it at a huge profit and have enlisted the help of a load of wibble-merchants (nutritionists) to sing its praises.
Look at this:
http://www.askbootshealth.com/a_to_z/co-enzyme-q10
As I said above, there is all this specious talk about "energy". The poor puntner thinks this is going to help him run marathons. In fact, the "enerery" is going on at biochemical molecular level and taking supplements will not improve strength.
John
John
Why couldn't the "natural nutrition practitioner" who told the lady to drink 6 extra pints of water / day and avoid salt be prosecuted for ABH? Surely the harm was a consequence of the "therapists" ridiculous advice?
rob clark - apart from the Bandolier review the doc pointed to, another recent review of the CoQ10-and-statins question is here. Again, the answer is "most likely to be a placebo".
Of course, the studies do not absolutely rule out that "there may be a small subgroup of those with statin muscle pains who really do benefit from CoQ10, beyond just placebo effect".
Unfortunately, the fact that a real effect in some people cannot be definitively ruled out tends to mean that people think:
"Well, if I take CoQ10 and feel I've got better then this is a real effect, since a real effect might be possible and I'm not the type of person to imagine it".
This is one of the classic problems of this and other similar scenarios, and one that is widely misunderstood (by people taking the tablets) and relentlessly and cynically exploited (by those selling the stuff).
PS Completely agree with Dr C about Boots' cynical mis-selling of CoQ10 supplements based around the bogus "Energy (scientific sense) = energy (vernacular sense)" idea.
It is total bollocks, and I speak as someone who has been researching "cellular energy metabolism" (on and off) for upwards of twenty years.
Food is good for you!
No food is bad for you!
My diploma? How kind.
Dr Aust,
You have clearly spent a lot more time than me engaging with these people and since my own exposure has been largely self-selecting (I ignore the crap) I am in no position to disagree with you about how many of them are impartial or otherwise; but maybe I am casting my net too narrowly here. What I am really interested in is whether you and Dr C believe there are voices outside of the medical establishment whose position on diet is polemical, yet whose integrity is sound. I suppose I am just trying to establish whether your stance is largely reactionary. I am put in mind of Gary Taubes, whose writings on carbohydrate and insulin have some relevance to the debate elsewhere on this blog surrounding the Biffa fiasco. Have you come across Taubes? If so, what is your view on him?
As I've probably mentioned before, I'm bipolar. Omega 3 oils seem to be increasing in popularity as a supplement in bipolar circles. Over time, some research has been done on this, but like most lay people, I find it difficult to find it all and to evaluate it properly. In the end, I found some peer-reviewed research that seemed to say that it seemed to help with psychosis and mood swings, but that more research was needed. Great, sort of an answer.
Here's where it gets even more difficult for the lay person. I eat loads of soya. Soya milk cartons are covered with stuff about omega 3. What they don't mention is the omega 3/omega 6 balance.
So there I am, a lawyer by training, trying to make sense of omega acids. I only got a B in chemistry at school. I struggled.
In the end, I concluded that the best thing was to introduce oily fish into my diet, and just to play safe, buy some fish oil capsules.
Wibble? I really am not sure, but when you've been as ill as I have, if it doesn't cost too much and you haven't read anything to suggest that it will harm you, you'll try it.
Ah, Crippo - you have forgotten the third tenement. Too much food is also bad for you. But we'll let you have your diploma anyway.
Can someone clarify for me the difference between a Nutritionist and a Dietician? I always thought the two words were interchangeable, and I fear I may have highly offended my "doctor who told me what to eat while I was on treatment".
I've just stumbled across this post and read the blog post about the poor lady dying of breast cancer unnecessarily.
I'm not a medical professional. I try to stay informed but have trouble keeping up with statistics and stuff.
However, I think the NHS is trying to mitigate the wibble factor by bringing in NOT JUST nurse practitioners but TA DA! Health Trainers.
I think (!) that the plan is to get the Health Trainers to back up the work of the GP and nurses and act as the friendly face of medicine.
I work in a Children's Centre in the West Midlands and there is a recruitment drive for Health Trainers based in GP/Primary Care surgeries to talk to patients about health, the importance of diet, exercise, the importance of compliance with drug regimes and to signpost patients to other services (drugs, alcohol, smoking cessation etc).
With Health Trainers supposedly reinforcing the treatment patients are getting, the hope is to reduce non-compliance and, possibly, reduce the number of patients who turn away from conventional medicine and to wibble merchants like the people you are trying to debunk.
Like that's going to work!?
Anon 9.54 pm:
"Dietician" is a regulated title, like medical practitioner, or dentist, or registered nurse. You have to do minimally a 3-yr science based degree. You have to stick broadly to "best practice", based on the known best evidence. Recommend left-field bollocks, let alone dangerous nonsense, and you can get disciplined and/or stopped from working.
"Nutritionist", on the other hand, means absolutely anything you want. Anyone can call themselves a "nutritionist", whether they have any kind of training or no. Most of the people currently calling themselves nutritionists were probably trained by one or other private nutrition college. These colleges teach what they please, see e.g. the School of Natural Nutrition Dr C is talking about, which offers a Diploma of one year's worth of Alternative Reality. Other ones teach other sets of theories. The colleges often follow a "school", sometimes derived from the college's founder, see e.g. Patrick Holford at the Institute of Optimum Nutrition. Many of the people teaching at A.N. Other Nutrition College tend to be graduates of the same college. Just don't call them a "cult", though - they get offended.
There are also now some B.Sc. courses (mostly at the ex-poly "new" Universities) that train "nutrition practitioners". The folk from these tend to have had a basic science grounding, at least in their first yr, taught by actual scientists. But, and the details depend on the institution, they are still likely to have been taught "nutritional therapy" - and often "Alt Reality philosophy" - by the (unregulated) nutritional therapists.
Take home: if you want sane dietary advice, see a dietician, or read a book written by one.
If you consult a "nutritionist", caveat emptor.
Ah whoops.
Thanks dr aust.
I think I have called my Dietician a Nutritionist. I'll apologise profusely next time I see him.
In reference to Ann's comment right at the start of the thread:
I think a personal experience of illness and then feeling one "cured oneself by embracing Alt Therapy" - typically when the person perceived conventional medicine wasn't doing anything for them - is central to the reason a lot of people become Alt therapists. It is certainly very common in the (thankfully small) group of ex-scientists who end up promoting Alt Reality.
I've developed my own nutritional philosophy. It's based around eating plenty of fruit and veg, and a balance of the other food groups.
Radical eh? I may start my own college.
Nhspenpusher
Like the thinking. Make sure you charge "market" fees.
A well known medical friend with a media profile and I once considered writing a "sensible dietary advice" book. We abandoned the idea because in the end we reckoned the sensible advice for normal healthy people could be summarised pretty well on a postcard.
A similar conclusion was reached by New York Times writer Michael Pollan and summarized in his much quoted aphorism:
"Eat food. Not too much. Mainly plants"
"Eat food. Not too much. Mainly plants"
So how do you eat 'not too much' food? Few people (including fat people), think "You know what, I have eaten 'enough food', but I think I will now eat some more!"
People eat in accordance to their appetite. So why can't we trust our appetite to dictate how much we eat (or indeed to ensure we eat 'not too much'? Is it because our appetite can be mislead by certain foods or is there some other mechanism at work?
You would think that when in calorific deficit - particulalry after exercise, our appetite would spur us to eat a bit more to rebuild our reserves. If we have had a particulalry easy day, and energy expenditure is low, you'd think our appetites would diminish accordingly. This seems to be the way it works in much of the animal kingdom (I have yet to see Attenborough present a program featuring a fat lion).
What is undoubted is that nobody can persist in a chronic state of hunger - eventually you will give in to your hunger. Thus, the advice to eat 'not too much' seems to miss the point.
Maybe lions consult holistic alternative nutrtionists?
The philosophy appealed to Kirsten’s methodical, scientific side, whilst remaining an art that encourages creativity and sensitivity. "Natural Nutrition, for me, represents an ongoing dialogue with my body and an ever deepening relationship with myself. The more space I clear within, the more I allow myself to be nourished and the more in touch I become with who I actually am. It's a very special way of supporting and enabling healing and growth”.
***********
(Dr C) I love the last paragraph. Can anyone translate it?
***********
I'll have a go.....
Sounds to me something like "the more I go to the lavatory, the more space I make for more food to eat! This makes me feel all good inside so that I can delude myself that I am really "in touch" with myself
Will that do it for you Dr C?
Steve
Chris
I think a key point here is that your appetite will adjust, at least to some extent, to your intake. I suspect I eat significantly more calories a day now, in my mid 40s, then I did as a 23 yr old grad student. Is that because I'm hungrier? Or because I have simply got used to eating more, now that I have a bit more money and someone else cooking my evening meals regularly?
Anyone who has seen a reality TV show about seriously obese people will have been struck by the vast amounts of food they put away. Is this learned behaviour, the need to "upkeep" a large body mass, or "genetic programming"? Or "probably all of the above" (which would be my answer).
The control of appetite and satiety (feeling full) is an incredibly complicated piece of physiology, to be sure. But "learned" stuff (both in terms of habits learned in childhood, like "eat everything on your plate" or getting food as a reward, and in terms of the body adjusting to what it gets regularly given) is hardly dismissable. So I would say that you CAN learn to eat less, e.g. simply by eating smaller portion sizes. If you are used to more, you will clearly feel hungry in the short to medium term. But that will adjust, at least to some extent. Feeling that you "haven't had enough", in terms of your learned eating habits, might be more difficult.
In this general connection, one of the things that you cannot help noticing if you go to the US, the home of modern over-eating, is the enormous size of portions. This is particularly true in many restaurants. I remember going to one particular restaurant in Boston in the mid-90s with a friend. We had one "hors d'oeuvre for two to share", after which we were both so stuffed that we couldn't eat any of the main course and had to bag it up to take home.
The restaurant's motto, prominently printed on the menu:
"Nobody leaves Vinny's hungry"
Dr Aust - "[your] appetite will adjust, at least to some extent, to your intake."
I don't buy this idea! This might seem like a contrived analogy, but think about your breathing. Breathing adapts to your body's oxygen requirements - but if you force yourself to breath harder, faster and deeper several times a day, over time will you develop a NEED to breath in more air? I think not.
The fact that in your mid 40s you eat more than you did as a 23 yr old grad student might well be because you are hungrier. Hunger is controlled by appetite which one presumes evolved over millenia to regulate energy consumption and respond to energy requirements.
So, we are still back to the possibility that your appetite has somehow been blunted/desensitised/misled by *something*. Thus you are hungrier in your 40s.
Affluence may mean you can buy more food, but it does not follow that you will simply eat more food (again we are back to the breathing analogy). Affluence might however affect the TYPE of food you eat. The type of food you can now buy may offer poorer satiaty or maladapt the hunger response.
The idea of a learned behaviour is interesting, but if I over-eat (like at Christmas), and push myself to eat more, I like most people feel sick. Furthermore, I eat less at/delay my next meal. I am sure you found the same with your Boston experience.
In addition, if I expend more energy, I eat more. This is why I don't but the 'eat more do less' advice. Exercise makes me hungry - something most of us experience, particularly after something like swimming. If I cut back on food, I feel weak and less able to exercise (or at least limited to exercising at a lesser intensity). If I cut back on food intake for a few days, I have to binge. The binge is my body telling me that it has been running on fat stores and needs to replace the fat.
Sure the US have massive portion and are a nation of fatties. But the nutritional profile of their diets is markedly different to that of the Japanese for example, who are generally thin. Look at the consumption for HFCS in America. This is the kind of thing that I would suspect of 'blunting' our appetite response.
I am not sure that upkeep of a large body mass is credible. Fat guys have to carry more weight around, they have to work harder simply to move and so I suspect will have a higher basal metabolic rate. So there is no advantage for the body to adapt this way.
For me, it is more likely that our physiology dictates consumption/appetite rather than psychology. I still hold the idea that our appetite is being misled somehow.
Cheers,
1976, first year med school, physiology: a research project to describe what happens to the body after the long-abandoned implantation of the ureters into the colon after a cystectomy. Good old Olof Lippold! Made us think, and enabled me to see why urine enemata would not be a good strategy for long term health!
Polarity therapy - http://www.ukpta.org.uk/
Hmmm
I do know someone who possesses a "qualification" in this. He also works within the NHS, presumably using slightly more evidence based treatments when he does so. On the other hand with the state of our local mental health services, if he practices this stuff openly, or indeed if he puts his underpants on his head and two pencils up his nose, "who's going to notice another mad man around here."
Anonymous - are you some kind of idiot? Polarity therapy is CLEARLY explained on the website:
"[Polarity Therapy] recognises that energy has to move from a positive to a negative pole, through a neutral field; ... This scientific law is fundamental to the movement of energy throughout the universe and the earth around us: it manifests in our physical body as energetic currents, which Dr Stone referred to as the Wireless Anatomy of Man"
Hmmmm sounds like the 'Brainless Anatomy of Bollocks' to me.
If you follow the profile of Dr Stone, he actually seems to have raised himself from the dead:
http://www.ukpta.org.uk/Dr_Stone.htm
Now even the cynics on this site cannot fail to be impressed by that.
[Now where are my magnets....]
There is one common factor amongst all these alternative therapy providers -
They are all completely 'f'ing mad.
Unfortunately not in a harmless benign way, they are also very dangerous.
As a medic if came up with any of this nonsense the GMC would not take long to act.
These nutters must be regulated / banned or preferably locked away for a long time
The trouble is HOW to meaningfully regulate people who sincerely believe that all illness results from "disturbance of the vital force"... see comment on the other thread
another recent review of the CoQ10-and-statins question is here. Again, the answer is "most likely to be a placebo".
***
Dr Aust,
Thanks for the link, sorry for the delayed response, had to go and earn a living (briefly).
Where I was coming from is that for a particular sub-group (Type I diabetics who are long-term statin users), there does seem to be some anecdotal evidence that CoQ10 is beneficial.
Since this sub-group by and large favours ‘traditional’ medicine (for want of a better term) over alternative wibble – for obvious reasons – I was wondering whether there could be any science behind this anecdotal evidence.
The answer appears to be ‘no’, although I notice the paper you linked to does call for a proper clinical trial.
"These nutters must be regulated..."
I'm broadly in favour of regulating 'alternative' practitioners, but concerned that regulation could lend them undeserved credibility. How do you regulate without giving credibility? Insist on a disclaimer similar to the psychic hotlines? "This nutritional advice is not based on science and is merely for entertainment purposes", maybe. I think DC's Improbable Science has had some interesting discussion of the issues of regulation and credibility.
Scary that Nash is still practising nutritionism though. *Shivers*
I clearly am most appallingly dim as I still don't understand polarity therapy!
My worry is that it appears to work better than the other kinds of therapy offered by our local mental health trust, if the health and longevity in post of the clinician trained in the therapy is any gauge. Most of the rest of the nursing staff seem to be off sick, and as for the doctors, well they hardly last five minutes. So could there be something in it after all - either that or he's the one who can't get a job anywhere else so he keeps drawing the salary and those with morals go under and those with transferable skills transfer.
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>Chris said...
>Dr Aust - "[your] appetite will >adjust, at least to some extent, >to your intake."
>
>I don't buy this idea! This might >seem like a contrived analogy, >but think about your breathing. >Breathing adapts to your body's >oxygen requirements - but if you >force yourself to breath harder, >faster and deeper several times a >day, over time will you develop a >NEED to breath in more air? I >think not.
There's a couple of giant great big holes in my logic chain but prentend there isn't:
People who live in high altitude places tend to do better at long-distance running due to adapting to the need to absorb a higher proportion of the oxygen they inhale.
People who undertake fitness training find an increase in their fitness. When they stop training, their fitness declines again - but slower than the initial gain.
So it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that breathing deeper will reduce the capability of the lungs to absorb oxygen.
More to the point, it is well known that starvation diets don't work, precisely because you "train" your body into being more efficient at retaining food - if you go from eating 1.5 times as much as you need to eating .5 as much, then when you go back to the reccommended amount when you've hit your target weight, you'll actually start gaining again.
The problem is people want to believe in off-the-shelf consumer solutions. "I have x, I will buy y / undergo treatment z". Altering your lifestyle feels like a "workaround" and not a fix. Funny how big pharma and the quacks converge to exploit this.
I've posted a reply recommending him benzoyl peroxide, which worked wonders for my acne. I hope he looks into it.
"People who live in high altitude places tend to do better at long-distance running due to adapting to the need to absorb a higher proportion of the oxygen they inhale."
Agreed, but there basal metabolism has remained constant and they have moved to an environment where the air is thinner - so an adaption is necessary. Breathing deeper may well alter the lungs' capacity to absorb oxygen, but the amount of oxygen we NEED is the same - so I would anticipate that should such a change in oung function occur, our rate of breathing would reduce accordingly as, presumably, each breath is more efficient.
I very much agree that starvation diets don't work. This still doesn't tackle the point about why we cannot trust our appetite to regulate our energy intake according to our need. When you look at a lion on the savannah, the alpha-male chomps away and then leaves some for the rest of the pride. He could eat more if he so chose, but obviously his appetite tells him 'enough'. So by analogy, it does not follow that the greater availability of food means we will eat more.
One for the scientists I guess!
Maybe the lion has had chelation therapy and realigned his chakras.
Cheers,
Is a translation still of interest? That paragraph is standard patter.
"Natural Nutrition, for me, represents an ongoing dialogue with my body
The social culture of NN and my personal exercise of its edicts help me pay attention to my physicality, which I translate into emotional self-awareness
and an ever deepening relationship with myself.
and is valued as the most authentic measure of my soul.
The more space I clear within,
The less enagaged I am with an [undefined entity or quality of experience], mostly originating from myself, which I see as distracting or misleading,
the more I allow myself to be nourished and the more in touch I become with who I actually am.
the more focused I am on practicing the NN tenets, which emphasize making life a soft fuzzy thing.
My ethical, intellectual, and value judgements are based on my visceral translation of this experience, which I believe is more real or uniquely my own than other states of mind or forms of expression.
It's a very special way of supporting and enabling healing and growth”.
Everyone's insides are special, especially mine(1).
We'll support you in believing that your insides are special, too. This way of life equates to personal and spiritual growth.
***
Disclaimer:
(1) I was a bit snarky in that one sentence. It's the not-nice way of exposing the overwhelming tendency of the culture to navel-gaze incessently while claiming they are are improving the world.
Although widely true, and thus worth including, it may not apply to this particular woman.
-Used To Live In Boulder CO
I visited this site and left a comment, advising that they need to stop spouting pee nonsence and advise this chap to go to his GP for some tetracylcine. My post only remained on the site for 30 mins before it was removed. I think these people should be locked up where they can enjoy their pee enemas to their hearts delight.
Amazing how no one is bothering to mention how many people die each year from poorly subscribed pharmacuticals, from invasive and aggressive cancer surgery and treatments, etc. etc.
Wow this article is truly scary. We seem to blindly trust medical practitioners. I wonder how much this happens.
"Do you really want to study with a psychological astrologer so that you can reconnect with the earth, be passionate about jam making, learn about re-birthing and have an on-going dialogue with your body?"
Bugger off!!! And - anyways - what the f*ck is a 'psychological astrologer'???
A chuffing Barnhamist!
To all you ignoramuses commenting on this blog, do any of you have a faith eg believe in God? Can you prove there is a God? No, didn't think so. So why go about bashing the other things you are too narrow-minded to understand. Fear, perhaps? Over to you...
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Finding a cure for any ailment including acne is all about not trying to posion yourself with too may chemicals. There are many alternative cures and also self help solutions to many conditions. The medical experts dont always have all the answers
www.acne-skin-treatments.lookupcity.com
I happened to stumble upon this blog during my holiday and find I am unable to stop myself in responding, despite trying to retain some sense of professional decorum. As a registered Dietitian once again I find myself incensed and appalled by the way these crystal wearing, vitamin-popping shysters (sorry – born in Lancashire, therefore I don’t mince my words) are allowed to “practice” without any redress for poor or dangerous advice. What made my blood boil even more that one of these charlatans even reported working at a GP practice – disgraceful state of affairs! What happened to evidence based practice? These GPs should be struck off. It is perhaps not surprising that patients don’t know the difference between Nutritional Therapists and Dietitians; these GPs apparently don’t know the difference either.
Please look here, under the sub heading Dietitians, for the British Dietetic Association’s definitive guide on who we are and what we do:
http://www.bda.uk.com/foodfacts
Also, as a student we were not allowed to begin the course with anything resembling an eating disorder (specifically Anorexia Nervosa) because this might compromise the advice we gave to patients. We probably do not promote ourselves as a profession as much as we could; perhaps this is part of the problem. So come on GPs, support your staff and refer your patients to individuals who are trained to give evidence based, independent advice.
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I would rather get advice from a chimpanzee on what to eat than a doctor or state registered dietician who are indoctrinated and ineffective. Then at least I would be going to grass roots and getting inpartial treatment.
The NHS doctors and dieticians should stop harping about the alternatives being quacks and dangerous and clean up their own acts.
Then people at large would not have to spend their hard earned money on alternatives when they have already paid the doctors and dieticians packets in taxes and charity.
I personally trusted the NHS and spent many years in pain until I tried alternatives and learnt what makes me really tick and got better.
I mourn my wasted years going to the GP and the state registered dietician and am livid that I had to live in pain so long due to their ignorance.
I suggest that it should be mandatory for all GPs and dieticians to learn about alternative diets and techniques if they want to be useful and realy help people instead of pushing drugs and standardised diet sheets.
They are badly in need of a third eye and these people who they are knocking down in a state of desparation and panic could provide them with it.
They have to wake up to the fact that public are voting with their feet and turning to alternatives in hoards sick of not getting results in the orthodoxy.
Otherwise highly intelligent people like Dr Crippen and Ann the pharmacist are in danger of goimg out with the dinasours while wallowing in their self grandiosement.
I would rather get advice from a chimpanzee on what to eat than a doctor or state registered dietician who are indoctrinated and ineffective. Then at least I would be going to grass roots and getting inpartial treatment.
The NHS doctors and dieticians should stop harping about the alternatives being quacks and dangerous and clean up their own acts.
Then people at large would not have to spend their hard earned money on alternatives when they have already paid the doctors and dieticians packets in taxes and charity.
I personally trusted the NHS and spent many years in pain until I tried alternatives and learnt what makes me really tick and got better.
I mourn my wasted years going to the GP and the state registered dietician and am livid that I had to live in pain so long due to their ignorance.
I suggest that it should be mandatory for all GPs and dieticians to learn about alternative diets and techniques if they want to be useful and realy help people instead of pushing drugs and standardised diet sheets.
They are badly in need of a third eye and these people who they are knocking down in a state of desparation and panic could provide them with it.
They have to wake up to the fact that public are voting with their feet and turning to alternatives in hoards sick of not getting results in the orthodoxy.
Otherwise highly intelligent people like Dr Crippen and Ann the pharmacist are in danger of goimg out with the dinasours while wallowing in their self grandiosement.
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